Speaker 1 (0s): This is Bruce Friedman of Adult Site Broker and welcome to Adult Site Broker Talk, where every week we interview one of the movers and shakers of the adult industry, and we discuss what's going on in our business. Plus we give you a tip on buying and selling websites this week. This week we'll be talking with Stefan Haenel of FinXP.
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Now time for this week's interview, my guest today on adult site broker talk is to find, Hey now of fin XP. Stefan, thanks for being with us today on adult side broker talk. It's a
Speaker 2 (3m 16s): Pleasure.
Speaker 1 (3m 18s): Well, good, good afternoon to you. Yes, you're in, you're in Germany and I'm in Thailand, so it's, it is a good morning. Good afternoon and good evening. Okay. So
Speaker 2 (3m 31s): The weather, right,
Speaker 1 (3m 33s): Don't be so sure. So Stefan is the CFO and co-founder of fin XP. He's an expert strategist with a strong business economics and finance management background. And with years of experience and equity, capital markets, financing issues and business development it's to fund is committed to driving Finn PS growth through innovation, and by offering the best service oriented payment and banking services in Europe, fin XP is an award-winning European payments and banking service provider that is committed to empowering business to easily make and receive payments in whatever form best suits them.
The company is led by an experienced management team. That's developed a holistic and integrated product portfolio. The clients and industry served are diverse, but Phoenix P is particularly committed to working with the I gaming crypto and adult industries. Fin P is licensed by the multi financial services authority and it's licenses valid all throughout Europe. The company is registered with the European payments council swift, as the principle member of MasterCard, FedEx P stands out by offering a combination of integrated payment and banking services under one roof.
This is rare as traditional banks do not process e-commerce payments because they lack a deep understanding of e-commerce business models that I get all that rights to fund
Speaker 2 (4m 60s): Any better.
Speaker 1 (5m 1s): Well, I try. Okay. It must have been the announcer voice. So Stefan, what motivated you to start fin XP? No.
Speaker 2 (5m 10s): Well, w we have been in the exit exercise board of a public listed gambling company for decades. So my co-founder and I, and we won several court cases against the state and we're not poly and lotteries in Germany. And we have seen the needs for reliable banking solutions. All of these industries are now added as well, coming on the pressure from the banks, from the card schemes, they are in the need for independent solutions. And this was basically the basis.
So we have done as this sexually, the fight against the state monopoly here. And, but we saw as bell first tendencies for financial blocking bangs, starting to support, of course the state lotteries, same license, then the private operators, but blocking them. And so we said, okay, there is a neat, and we have to build despite ourselves.
Right. So, and that's how it all started.
Speaker 1 (6m 17s): Okay. So, so you actually are, are involved in an I gaming company.
Speaker 2 (6m 22s): I, I have been, yes. I was the CFO of a public listed gaming company, ah, for over 10 years old, we know a bit, at least from the, from the gaming side. And you can expose these into crypto, into editors as well. We, we know the problems of the industries, right?
Speaker 1 (6m 42s): Yeah. I've got a, I've got a branch and I gaming as well. I have to talk about that afterwards. So only fans plan to ban sexually explicit content, apparently due to pressure from banks and payment processors. Here we go. Only for them to go back on that decision. What can companies do to avoid this kind of pushback from financial institutions?
Speaker 2 (7m 6s): Well, first of all, what was a choose carefully, which means this to payment process or financial institution, you are intend to work with management owned. Yep. Are they blending an IPO? How does the investor landscape look like? Right. So before perform your supplier due diligence, and while even if they do not behave like that, they always remind banks, our suppliers, you are the customer, right. Sometimes you feel, it feels a bit like,
Speaker 1 (7m 33s): Are we really
Speaker 2 (7m 36s): Right? Exactly. But of course was you have all the rights to choose your partner and check carefully. Right? And, and that's what we have seen in so many cases is Adyen, Stripe, and, and others. They do a lot, they are open to, let's say the reputation of risk and then IPO blends come of course, on the desk. And then they start to de-risk in the sense of, ah, now investors will ask what is our core business, right.
And why God, which is not a good example anymore, but they're always committed to, to these industries, right. And end were public. It was a core part
Speaker 1 (8m 20s): Of adult was a core part of their industry.
Speaker 2 (8m 24s): Exactly. And they, and everyone knew, and you have to be open with that. Right. And sure, except that some investors may not to then invest into your IPO. Right. But there are others who are looking maybe for, for margins, for profitability, but this is something you may need to, to do, right. If choose, choose your partners to see, because everyone who is investor driven, whether it's B financing rounds every year, or at the end of the, the target to the IPO, you might be determined by external partners.
And that's maybe one, one issue is about, and at Phoenix P we are, we own the company we decide, right. And that's a different thing, and this does not exclude it. We would never may look for an IPO or whatever, but even then it will be us leading, leading the company because we are very profitable and we don't need investors in the sense that we give, give out or give away control.
Speaker 1 (9m 31s): Sure, sure. Choose your partner carefully kind of sounds like dating actually. So why didn't you, why do you as Phoenix P choose to support the adult industry
Speaker 2 (9m 45s): And what we have seen hypocrisy in the gambling industry and build of course, subsequently industry solutions that will work as well for the other industry. Right? So by banks are de-risking the reputational risk for, for my view, no reason. Right. We will take it as it is a management decision. Right. Which I previously explained. So it's, it's we decide and the solutions we build will fit perfectly and the industry, and we have, we don't have these more moral issues. Of course it has to be legal and, and follow certain standards, but it has been around for four decades and, or in other words is it's one of the oldest business of the world.
Right. So, and everyone does it. So I can imagine the, the bankers have these first-year bangs. They all have issues with the diversity in the, in the supervisory boards. Right. They are very often accused of not taking women rights series or paying the same salaries, all the stuff. Right. And you can imagine these investment bankers going for, for a big party in denied table dance club and, and delight. Right. And the next morning, the added merchant, right.
All these guys find in the glimpse in London, in the table, in bars and in Miami and LA wherever. Right. And then the next morning they declined adult industry a hundred. We can't do that. Right. That guy's okay. And then stay off to the gloves were
Speaker 1 (11m 12s): Well, are there, you know, they're there. Hi Erin, hi, hi class call girls. And you know, let's face it. They're consumers of porn. They're mainly men. We know they're consumers of porn. These politicians are consumers of porn. So yeah, it's it's
Speaker 2 (11m 34s): Oh my
Speaker 1 (11m 34s): God, that hypocrisy is so deep. You could cut it. So what are some opportunities that you can assist companies in our industry?
Speaker 2 (11m 44s): Yep. All right. Well, we can support in several areas. And so why we do offer credit card processing. We have a lot, of course, alternative med methods that are designed to reach out to the customers, to consumers of all merchants. So the industry, in my view, of course, is, is very much driven from the U S right? So all the big players, they stopped in the U S and the U S is very much credit card minded. Right.
And even if we deal with visit the merchants, like in, in the, in the CBD area, we are at the moment we have just recently onboarded the large us player. They all think credit cards, the guys within Europe, even in the U S there are people who don't have credit cards or who don't want to use credit cards, especially if, if you look into debt and industry or gaming, they don't because the wives, the statement, right. So they don't want to go, Hey, what's this charge,
Speaker 1 (12m 42s): What's this charge for a hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (12m 48s): And so, so you have to reach out to them with other alternatives, right. And that's what we, as well off our gateway has, which is a lot of laundry acquirers acquires, but overall it's 350 plus payment processes, banks that are technically connected. Right. And so I will just talk maybe about some solutions a bit later, but this could be interesting, that goes with as well, some acquirers withdrawing from the industry, right.
You need to look into, to, to other payment methods, right. And apart from that, we do offer dedicated business accounts to support the increasing need for banking in the industry. Right. We have seen a lot of companies that are now they're without bank accounts, or just lost some of their bank relationships because banks are saying, oh, no, we have had clients not directly from the end of the industry, but just to give you an example, we had a marketing agency in Germany doing a lot of, of course, online marketing, older, the search engines stuff, the social media.
So being very special and that, but doing as well of the good old stuff, like very high level magazines, right. And they decided to build a pore to, which was their first step into, into edit industry. But to build a portal where the goal girls can met predict deadlines, but, but in a different way, so a bit linked to Facebook and stuff, their bank first year German bank realized that.
And apart from that, if we're just doing the standard marketing business, right. So nothing was added and which was the biggest part of it. But just because they started with the business, the bank terminated all the relationship. Yeah. It doesn't surprise
Speaker 1 (14m 41s): Me. Right.
Speaker 2 (14m 43s): And this is something we, well,
Speaker 1 (14m 45s): That's K that's also running a foul of some of some laws in the U S with foster, which I'm sure you're familiar with. So actually they are violating a us statute that the U S can actually come after them for, and if the bank facilitates it, I believe now I'm not an attorney, but I believe the bank blank be liable. And don't quote me on that, but it's possible.
Speaker 2 (15m 14s): Okay. I don't know the U S legal system in depth, but,
Speaker 1 (15m 19s): And you talk to your attorney about foster sister. That's one that you really do need to know about. Cause it's pretty serious.
Speaker 2 (15m 26s): Okay. Yeah. So, so
Speaker 1 (15m 30s): Yeah. Yeah. So, so I'm not surprised the bank shut them down because if they're doing, if they're, if they're doing escort advertising, then they are clearly violating a us law. And as you probably know, the arm of the U S AIG is pretty long,
Speaker 2 (15m 52s): But, but they were just doing it in that case, here, business in Germany, and no time, no ties to the us at all. So,
Speaker 1 (15m 60s): Okay. If that's the case, then, then they, then they put maybe the day
Speaker 2 (16m 5s): I'm aware of advertising, it's different, but this is just the de-risking on the reputation,
Speaker 1 (16m 12s): For sure. Absolutely. So you, you answered this partially earlier, but I'm sorry. You were, you were doing
Speaker 2 (16m 21s): Yeah. Just because not a problem. So we provide dedicated accounts and payments. Of course, if we even look into, if someone obeys it as laws. Right. But, and what we do is we do process payouts full and provide accounts to the industry's content providers. So including debit funds. So what we have already doing is that we have, of course, the, the, the webcam services, right. And they even see problems in getting their partners, content providers.
Right. And that's something we, we do when we could even provide demo accounts so that they get not from directly from the merchant, which then maybe might be blocked, but they get it from their account with us, into the account they have in wherever, in Europe example. And so then it's a bank to bank transfer and the bank will not stop it because they don't see the debater as the adult player. Right. So, and this is quite good.
Good, good service.
Speaker 1 (17m 32s): That's a very good service. Actually. That's something I'm sure a lot of people will be interested in now. Sorry to interrupt you. So you kinda, you, you somewhat answered this, but I'm sure there's probably a more, more lengthy reply on it that I'm gonna, I'm going to let you go on, why is it the traditional banks don't work with the adult industry, but you can support the industry.
Speaker 2 (17m 57s): Well, it, this is a short answer. We own the company, right. We decide, right. And we give you highly profitable. And so we do not need investors money and are free to, to decide. Right. And of course we focused on the money laundering risk, which is us key, but not on the reputation of risk. We mentioned already the hypocrisy in, in debt, we are not here to judge whether the adult industry is good or bad.
Right. It has to be legally, but then, well, it's in a democratic, liberal worlds. This all should be possible, right? Yes. And if you look into, yeah, if you look into just my, my personal opinion that comes service, it offers women and men, of course, an option to earn, earn income, right. In a much, in a much safer environment. Right. Because they are at home. Right.
And they don't have to meet the people. So this is to me, a much safer and cleaner weight. And so why not supporting that know if you would not support it, you cut off people who might be even in the need to make some extra money. Right. Like, and we want to, right. They are not forced to do, to earn money.
Speaker 1 (19m 19s): Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, if you look at the live cams and you look at the only fans type of site, the fan sites, the clip sites, I mean, this has been a lifeline for so many people that didn't have work during the pandemic. And not only, you know, we're able to get by, but they thrive excepted.
Speaker 2 (19m 42s): So
Speaker 1 (19m 42s): Are you worried that the whole war on porn is going to harm fin XP as a supporter of the adult industry?
Speaker 2 (19m 50s): Well, my previous company, so the, so the betting gaming company, while we won the war on game, on gambling in Germany. And indeed, because we, as I earlier mentioned to be won several very important court cases against the state monopoly. And so we can stand criticism and hostility. So, and again, we are independent and there always will be people in groups that try to fight against the way let's say other people do business or live their private lives.
Right. There's been kind of is this ban on ban and keeping exotic pads ban on driving ban on gambling ban on neurotic, why a ban on everything. So nothing that should be banned in a free democratic and liberal society. That's fine. So of course we have to be careful. We have to take these movements serious and position ourselves against it. Right. And that's something maybe that's important. So stand up for, for, for, for your rights here.
And because sometimes the, the industries watch and going back into, into their whole thing. Okay. Did Von come that bad? Right. And you need to do constant lobby work as well. Yes. And I do have to point out the income for the people. The tax is paid, all this stuff, so right. Because no one really knows that, that it may have changed you to now a lot of the, the, all the Netflix, Amazon prime stuff that people are watching as well now, not to buy a TV, but, but why internet films and whatever.
But some years ago, I think 60 to 70% of the internet traffic was edit industry. Right. So there's a market right there, servers, there's it companies involved. There's a lot of Texas. Right. So, but I think lobby is very important. Otherwise we may lose the war.
Long-term right. I agree.
Speaker 1 (22m 1s): I agree with you. Yup. By the way, I know that the German tax authority can be a little rough. You sued the government and one, how many years in a row have, have you been audited?
Speaker 2 (22m 16s): Oh, that's a different story of my life. The, the two main courses up to high courts decision and the victory it's took us five and four years to get through. Right. But as the
Speaker 1 (22m 36s): Tax authority come after you,
Speaker 2 (22m 40s): No, because this was not a text texting.
Speaker 1 (22m 42s): I know, I know in, but in, in the U S it's, it's kind of funny because if you, if you go against the government, the IRS tends to show up. So anyway,
Speaker 2 (22m 53s): Ah, to put some pressure on no. Okay. No, no, not at all. They, they are really independent, so there's no, no linkage and yeah, this is,
Speaker 1 (23m 3s): It should be from your country. So besides everyone using Phoenix, P how do you see payments in the adult industry developing in the next three to five years? I kind of added the first part.
Speaker 2 (23m 17s): Yeah. So credit card and banking, of course, we'll be under pressure for sure. We see now different Greece. Right? So it, the industry needs to develop their own ecosystem for banking and payment. In general, I see grip will play a significant role. Yes. Right. This would be engraved, but at the bank Bitcoins and other, other coins, or even stable coins did may establish more and more like you have the bonus systems bonus points Maya's was, was out the airlines might and similar systems might, might work here.
I see solutions like our cash decode solution, right. Are being established more and more or volume-based offers. Right. Sure. And of course, part of our solution as well, consumers might choose to apply for an account service, an industry friendly institution like us. Right. So that that's become maybe a bit light a bit, it's a bit, our vision. And we have established is already for the gaming that you have the ecosystem where the, the merchant has an account, the consumer has the account, and then they can, can, and maybe even their affiliate partners, and then they can interact and failures in this system without leaking it, or just leaving it at some, some points.
And whenever the consumers make a payment or receive, it's not for my gaming, it's from us. Right. So, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24m 56s): And so you see the, what used to be alternative becoming primary at some points.
Speaker 2 (25m 3s): Absolutely. Absolutely. That's
Speaker 1 (25m 6s): I agree with you. I would agree with you now, Phoenix P also serves other so-called high risk industries like crypto and I gaming. How has the adult industry the same or different to these other industries?
Speaker 2 (25m 20s): Adult has definitely a money laundering risk then gambling. Yeah. Which gambling ID not to be that high. It has been blazed there by regulators, right? For political motivated. Yeah. That's why we have gambling as defined by regulars as, as being high risk for money laundering. Right. And offline. Yes. Casinos cash. No, no second opinion. Right. There have been so much money in there, but online it's, it's not the whole setup is for Dillon dot designed to support money laundering.
It's more or less important to me because everything has to be done via credit card or bank account. Right. So you have to go be the audit trail. So you can't learn the much. Right. And try to launder a million in the casino, right. With a nine 98%. So you have to, buildings are small. So you have to sit there for hours and weeks to get it in small launches back. So doesn't make sense, but, and edit of course has even a much lower risk than crypto, right?
So from this perspective, it's very welcome with us, Ms. Phoenix speed. And what remains is the, the fraud risk, reputation, risk, and the risk of illegal content. But this is all manageable. And especially as we have very scalable, highly automated procedures and tools, so this should not keep one and even not a bang from stopping the business, the issue is we have, so the very good thing was, was in Europe, the force ending AML directive, right.
Which raised or come up with the risk-based approach. Right. But no one is following the respectables. You, it doesn't mean downsize or de-risk right. Downsizing your risk. It means know your risk and then define your measures. Right. That's what, that's what, that's what we do. We see, okay. There might be a higher risk in certain industries, but to be, we'll take them. But of course we have to do additional measures and be more careful then. Right. Right. But that's the thing not getting rid of the risk, but adjusting your, your measures.
Right. Wouldn't it be?
Speaker 1 (27m 41s): Wouldn't it be nice if everyone thought of it that
Speaker 2 (27m 46s): Indeed, because their songs lay so many opportunities. Right. And then the banks are mourning on, on reduced profitabilities and right. Losing business that way, guys, if you don't.
Speaker 1 (27m 58s): Yeah. They're not making any money. I don't, I believe that. Yeah. Yeah. I see there, I see their earnings reports. Yeah. Not exactly. How do you manage to keep up to date on what's happening in the adult industry?
Speaker 2 (28m 12s): Well, listening to all existing merchants is key. Right. And then of course, attending trade shows, fairs focused on the industry or on industries and, and payments are like money 20, 20. Right. We always get the general trends. Right. You get a lot of inspiration and ideas. Y Y attending these, these shows, talking to your clients and again, listen, right. Yes. That's how we developed solutions. Right. Because we see, okay, there's a problem. So how can we then of course, even the, I need that the merchant has to listen as well to us and being willing to adopt the solutions or even changing their internal procedures or just software.
Right. So to some extent you have us, do you need to let us in to connect payment solutions. Right. Right, right. But that's, that's what we do. It's about talking to people, listening to your sides. Guys, listen to the emotions, attending trade shows. Right. And that's the way you do it. So
Speaker 1 (29m 14s): With regards to payments and banking, what keeps you up at night?
Speaker 2 (29m 19s): Well, I, I do sleep well. I do restore his 64 bloomers Richard Petty tribute car at the moment. So that keeps me up in the night, searching for parts sinking. Right. So it's like a problem, but the car we now it's painted about. No, you have to get to everything to get a ride transmissions engine.
So, but challenging, but a nice, nice project. But, but, but, but no, but seriously, with regards to business, it's really the, the building of solutions for problems of certain industries, right? The, the payment ecosystem, I mentioned, which we have, have built there's more to come, but that includes the merchants, their customers, and their marketing and affiliate partners. This is, this is indeed a key and dare, dare I say that off swords.
It even sometimes indeed keeps me up in the night by thinking about, okay, how can we do that? Or how can we do things faster? Right. Do elaborate more on the, on the API APIs of our core banking system. Right? So, because this is not like credit card processing, which has been around there for, for, for decades. And, and the technology procedures processes are quite clear to everyone.
Like this is new API APIs, new interfaces linked, right. And this is something where you have to spend some, some brains on that. And indeed, that's something
Speaker 1 (31m 8s): You said, you got some things coming up, anything you want to share.
Speaker 2 (31m 13s): Well, as I said, so the, the cash to cold solution is a very good one. And the, the, our closed loop ecosystems, or having providing bank accounts for the mentions Vada consumers for the industry, especially they're the content providers. Right. Which makes it much easier to receive the supplements and, and, and to allocate then the payments to your partners. Right. And, and this is already a bit there's of course, a more so we, we have a very good way on the, on the, on payouts for the gaming industry, for example, but the other is so paying visit your bank account, right.
If something gets that's upcoming, where you, you ideally zero balance on the merchant side and then can decide to do use this balance to pay a bit, a bit like a bullet. Right. But it will be backed by the, by the, by the bank, a bank account. Right. Of course it, it, it needs, it needs the consumer to apply for that. Right. So there is a bit of a, her Lynn, but the less we can use or to card and other methods, the more you may go into that.
And once you have it established, right. It's, it's there. Right? Sure, sure.
Speaker 1 (32m 29s): So what's your vision for Phoenix P especially when it comes to the adult?
Speaker 2 (32m 34s): Yeah, well, of course, really, to get a much bigger footprint into this industry, like we today for, for gaming among all partners, Glines Dale are really first year players, and this would be division is better for the island industry to really get a strong footprint into that and, and to finalize and adopt our closed loop payment ecosystem for the industry.
But B I C S delivers tremendous support and to industry will as well, benefit a lot if they take the time to, to talk to us and, and as well to, to invest into their it systems and to connect to us. Right. So I think there will be a big benefit. Sure.
Speaker 1 (33m 26s): Now, what's, what's an important lesson you've learned throughout your career that you think is especially relevant to the people. Listening,
Speaker 2 (33m 35s): Listen to your customers, listen to your team members and all weighs half a fall back. And of course, never trust any bang. Right. And don't worry, okay, let's go top,
Speaker 1 (33m 49s): Top of my enemies list. So don't worry
Speaker 2 (33m 52s): Indeed. Right. Then it comes to the lawyers,
Speaker 1 (33m 55s): Politicians, governments, yeah. Insurance companies, they're all up there,
Speaker 2 (34m 4s): But the banks really have become a corporation, even for, in general for, for industry it's, it's a, they have become a risk for the economy, right. Because it's not only these high risk in brackets industries, it's even the mortgage layer. They have issues. Right. But, but maybe some, some more lessons, half your KYC in order to be compliant and even more transparent. Right. Right. So along the way, we have seen so much complex structures with affiliate networks involved in texts, vendors, foundries funds flows all over the world, right.
Don't be surprised if a bank declined to obligation or even terminates under, if you have Hong Kong, Dubai, Cyprus island, whereas everything involved and then payments would go everywhere. Dollar is an issue, right. If you processing dollar, right. It isn't in day because everyone who's not as a bank needs the affiliate or the, the, the correspondent partner, right.
A bank in the U S right. And they have very tight rules. Meanwhile, what you can process or not. And they are all afraid to lose the dollar correspondence. So a strictly obeyed to whatever rule the U S banks tell them. Right. And this means that it will not risk the dollar facility for smaller business, or because they still do the, the, the, the big industry players, right.
The car manufacturers, general electrics and Siemens of the world. And that's their business. Even not risk their dollar business for, for gaming or edit industry. Right. Right. And so, whatever you do, because we still get to get requests all, can you, can you do dollar and basically S but it's real risk. Even your relationship with us, because then we as well need other correspondent and they will tell us, what are you guys doing?
So switching to the Europe.
Speaker 1 (36m 20s): Yeah. The KYC on dollars. Just ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (36m 24s): Yeah. And, but this industry is still asking, can you do Donna guys, you have a problem. Right. So don't ask for one again, again, for one of the reasons why you have a problem.
Speaker 1 (36m 36s): Big time. Yeah. My, my country, anyway, what's the nav course. I'm in Thailand, right? What's the number one takeaway you'd like listeners to remember from this interview always
Speaker 2 (36m 51s): And have a fallback be compliant and transparent. And of course, blue bay was Phoenix. P
Speaker 1 (36m 57s): Wow. Very good. I think that was more than one, but anyway, I'll, I'll, I'll let you off the hook. Where can listeners find you
Speaker 2 (37m 5s): WW Fenix speed.com. Well,
Speaker 1 (37m 8s): Stefan, I'd like to thank you for being our guest today on adult side broker talk, I learned a lot, and I hope we'll get a chance to do this again, really soon.
Speaker 2 (37m 16s): Very open for that. I appreciate it a lot. And thanks for the opportunity as well as being here. Thank you. And thanks a lot.
Speaker 1 (37m 26s): My broker tip today is part two of how to buy a site. Last week, we discussed first deciding the type of site you want to buy and then establishing what your budget is next. It's time to look for your new website. So where do you look? Well, adult site broker is a great place to start. We always have a nice variety of website and non website properties for sale, but if there's a particular type of site you want, we can always act as your buyer's broker to help you find just the right site.
Other places to look are on the boards, but to be completely Frank, unless what you're looking for is a really low end property. You're probably not going to find what you're looking for there. Of course you could contact site owners yourself, but take it from someone who does it for a living. It's a major hassle, and it can be really hard to even find out who owns a site. Almost all adult sites use who is privacy from their domain registrar. So when you send them an email, it will be to an anonymous address.
And in most cases, the emails aren't returned. We have a huge database of sellers and generally know who owns what. And if it's a website of note, if we don't know who owns it, we can always find out, we'll talk about this subject more next week. And next week, we'll be speaking with Panos of GF Y and the inner next expo in Las Vegas. And that's it for this week's Adult Site Broker Talk. I'd once again like to thank my guest Stefan Haenel of FinXP. Talk to you again next week on Adult Site Broker Talk. I'm Bruce Friedman.