Adult Site Broker Talk Episode 79 with Terry Stephens of One Eyed Jack Productions

Speaker 1 (0s): This is Bruce Friedman of Adult Site Broker and welcome to Adult Site Broker Talk, where every week we interview one of the movers and shakers of the adult industry, and we discuss what's going on in our business. Plus we give you a tip on buying and selling websites this week. This week we'll be talking with maverick UK producer Terry Stephens.

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Now let's feature our property the week that's for sale at adult site broker, internet.com. The ultimate internet domain is now available and we're proud to list it. The domain gets 6 million unique visitors a month. This domain can be used for any of a number of uses. The opening bid is only $35 million. Now time for this week's interview. My guest today and adult side broker talk is Terry Stevens. Terry, thanks for being with us today on adult site.

Broker talk, thanks for having me. I'm really honored to be here. Well, I'm honored to have you. I've been looking forward to this now Maverick producer, Terry Steven started out selling porn on VHS when the business was highly illegal in the mid nineties, before a chance encounter with the customer gave him the opportunity to make his first amateur movie. It was a couple of years later when he gained recognition as an amateur producer on the popular viewers wives series. From your choice in Holland, while still doing the round selling videos by mail order and door to door, I'd got him rated a two year court case in suit.

Meanwhile, Terry was gaining recognition with his new one. I Jack Gonzo series of movies that earned them a seven movie distribution deal to produce new movies for associates in the U S Terry teamed up with a partner and a launch wrist action entertainment. I love that name, a DVD distribution company, supplying sex shops across the UK. The problems with the new found industry gone legal had problems that required a constant concerted effort to set standards.

And UK producers was born from a chance gathering of producers to form an association under the name of producers for a pint, another great name everything's about drinking their you cap. As it came to be known later was a collection of producers who engineered the much needed changes that were required in a largely unregulated business, which later found itself defending the right to produce adult content for sale in the UK and its numerous challenges from the RA teen online, 80 VOD and age verification.

At the same time, Terry was gaining momentum with his award-winning series, real couples, which was featured on Playboy's sex cetera. And he was also juggling with productions and daily politics with performers and his commitment to the association, as well as staying ahead of all the changes that come with a business and a constant state of flux after years of being a secretary to the various administrations over a 10 year period, Terry became the default chairman for the full five-year term and oversaw the U cap awards from 2014 to 2018.

Since the pandemic Terry has been living in Bulgaria and continues to monetize his website. Sorry, Terry, that's all the time we have for today. Nice talking to you.

Speaker 2 (4m 37s): Thank you very much. Goodbye. So yeah, pretty good. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (4m 42s): I do my best. So tell us about yourself and how you got into the adult business.

Speaker 2 (4m 50s): I came into the business when it was illegal to sell porn and made my posts through mail order and home deliveries. Before, you know, before that shark's encounter with the customer where they asked me if I could find it, you asked me if I knew any couples that would make me want to make a video. Of course I didn't because I saw videos, but I didn't know a couple that were having an affair. And I told them about a friend who wanted to make a video. And I was quite surprised.

They said, yes, they agreed to do it.

Speaker 1 (5m 23s): And they were having an affair.

Speaker 2 (5m 25s): Yeah, I'll have to elaborate on this a little bit more because I used to sell video from home and I used to do my, my, my selling, where could we to come into my home? So they'd look at the videos that they were to buy at this particular couple came to visit me one day and they said, look, you know, hotels are really expensive. Can we stack? Yeah. And I was like, this is highly unusual, but I was getting used to being highly unusual, some important times when I start meeting unusual customers.

So I said, yeah, man, whatever, you know, that had been a little bit extra. And because I knew that they were having an affair, I think it was probably why I asked them because it was a private video anyway. So I hooked them up with this other guy. He gave me his camera and I filmed them with it. I'd like to say that my career started from that moment, but it didn't start till a couple of years later after the incident, he said he had no use for the camera and he left it with me. That took me about two years later, before I used it to film a girl who applied through an advert in an adult magazine.

And I really didn't know what to do at all. I just knew that she was really pretty and others thought I'd be silly to pass up on this. So I asked a friend if he would be the stud for me. And he was like, what do, what? Why don't you do it because I'm filming, what am I supposed to do? I can't I at then, you know, I didn't know. I wasn't into the Gonzo thing. I was, I was like wet behind the ears. This is my first girl I ever filmed. So of course it was kind of awkward, but it was a nice meeting though, because when I, when I met her, I spent a bit of time asking her a question.

I was just generally curious why she would put an ad. What more would she answer an ad for selling videos to want to make videos? And she said, well, she thought it was a psychological thing. You know, people who sell it must make it. And I thought, now I'm powering this stuff, you know? Okay. I sit there, I found myself getting into the amateur film market then. And it, I was doing that for quite some time before, before I started meeting people in, in what was the beginnings of the auto industry at the time?

Well, yeah, I mean this, I think they're the only real person that we had of any stature in the business at the time was Ben Dover because, you know, w we were still at a point where the industry was illegal. And I think we might've had some soft channels, like the adult channel, I think television X might have started at back then, but they were soft. So there was a whole different approach, but that's a hardcore was highly illegal, but somehow there was an underground market if you like of people making movies.

Because I think there's technology that facilitate that. I think it's the fact that a lot of eight millimeter video cameras, but then came down in price and human beings being human beings will find uses for those, those cameras. And invariably it turns to sex. And I think back in the early days, most of the trading of adult videos was mainly done by swaps. So yeah, that's the, that's, that's my, my early beginnings.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (9m 2s): That's your story. And you're sticking to it. Okay. Well, and I think just about all of us got into the business by mistake. So, but it turned out to be a nice mistake for both of us. So what was it like selling porn back in the nineties compared to now?

Speaker 2 (9m 18s): Do you know? One of the things I, I tell a lot of people is from my own personal experiences, nothing's really changed just the format. In other words, the principal is selling movies are still, you shoot it, you produce it, you sell it right. But then we were sending it on VHS videos, you know, these chunky cassettes and, you know, and, and nowadays it's all file-based uploaded onto the internet and monetized to a clip site platform.

So that's the format now, but there were, there are lots of other things that were different back then. We never had access to lotteries credit card processes. So we had to rely on cash and postal orders, which for great and checks, nobody remembers checks, but you can be used to get checked.

Speaker 1 (10m 12s): I remembered checks. I'm older than you are. I totally remembered.

Speaker 2 (10m 16s): Well, yeah. So, you know, we waited for the checks to clear so that we made sure we got our money because we never sent any of the goods out by mail order until we got our money. Otherwise they, they, they would cancel that check, which will probably be the modern equivalent of a chargeback. Yeah. Yeah. So back then we could avoid charge backs by waiting for the checks to clear. So when you think about it, it was better back then.

Speaker 1 (10m 38s): Yeah. You make, you make a good point.

Speaker 2 (10m 42s): I think a lot of things are more simple about that as well. I think that a lot of the business was out of sight out of mind nowadays, it's just fallen in your face because of all the tube sites. Sure.

Speaker 1 (10m 53s): It's everywhere.

Speaker 2 (10m 54s): And I think, yeah, and I think that's, what's causing us problems today. Otherwise the adult sites set up pay sites would be out of sight out of mind.

Speaker 1 (11m 3s): Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. So when did you transition to couples porn and why, what did you feel? It was going to be more socially acceptable.

Speaker 2 (11m 14s): The transition to real couples came naturally on the basis of all my previous years. So I've worked with couples for the moment I started, but I didn't, I didn't, I didn't shoot them as couples. I just shot them as boy, girl scenes. Right. But when I thought about it and we were starting to get a lot of no shows in the business at the time and my partner who jumped on board and moved before, about the time we did resection us, that it would be more practical if we just worked with couples.

And it made sense because that way that you're not going to get one, not shoving. If there, if there are a couple, I, you gotta get boy, girl, so you're gonna get boy girls too, because they live together. Right. So nine times out of 10, you're always going to get shoot. So it made perfect sense to shoot couples and yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was, it was just a lot easier as well because the chemistry was already there. It just made everything easier. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12m 16s): Oh, that makes perfect sense. So now I gotta ask you this, what's the deal with this alter-ego you've got naked truth guy. Now, how did that come about and what did you do?

Speaker 2 (12m 29s): Right. Okay. Nike chief guy came about, I think it was about 2014 when there was a guy called Jeremy Barnet who was campaigning against stop porn culture because we had people like anti-porn campaigners, Gail Dines, and Juni, Ben bull did conventions for people that was anti porn. So we,

Speaker 1 (12m 57s): I remember, I remember the protest across the street from the hotel in London.

Speaker 2 (13m 3s): That was probably the one we went to. Yeah. That's pretty

Speaker 1 (13m 5s): Good. That's where we met. Right, right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13m 8s): Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Cause there was a lot of people there it's on YouTube, the video, but yeah, it started from there because I was merely just a camera man. Just documenting what was going on in the day. And I remember waking up on Monday morning and I think this was probably inspired because by, by a woman called Charlotte rose, who said to me, if you had a secret season to do a radio show, as you said to me, if you had a secret power, what would you want that power to be?

And I remember that, then it just came to me naturally. It's just about the truth. Yeah. And she says, so your power would be telling the truth. I says, yeah. Do you know what? Yeah. I think it would be telling the trippy, cause there's a, there's a lot of lies being spread about porn right now. They're trying to demonize a business that I'm in. I'm not who these people make me out to be. Yeah. So, and the no naked truth guy came out of that and I thought, wow. Yeah. So I set up my Twitter account as naked truth guy.

And I used that to talk about the, the things that I used as my commentary. So whenever I spoke to Google, like gal darn, she blocked me, by the way, you know, I w I was counteract their comments with the truthful comments. Like, I'll say she said something, I would say, well, can you prove that? Because they can't, they'll come out with stop figures. Like, you know, for instance, the adult industry makes $98 billion a year. And I thought that can't be, where did you get your fat shop?

And they don't want to answer that.

Speaker 1 (14m 47s): Yeah. Got it. Very close by right out of their ass. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14m 50s): Is that, you know, and I called Gail Dines out because I was watching her, her what she was doing with her, her convention and some of the things that she was talking about because of how she was talking about sex addiction and whatnot. She was offering

Speaker 1 (15m 9s): Courses at $1,500. So I told her that she existed. Yeah. So you existed on the basis of flying an iPad tells or the adult industry. I said, in fact, you need us to do what you need to do for us. So you'll make your money out of us. Isn't that always the case.

Speaker 2 (15m 28s): Do you know what? She admitted that before she blocked me. She goes, yeah, you got my number, then block me.

Speaker 1 (15m 33s): Do you, do you think that the, the resistance to adult is any worse in the UK than it is anywhere?

Speaker 2 (15m 42s): No. I think there's a, there's a higher tolerance and acceptance to adult, especially with the public. My only problem as of late in recent, recent years, I think a lot of people now are starting to be a bit confused by performance calling themselves sex workers. Yeah. Because I think the confusion is, and I've noticed this because we started having problems within that industry. Now we've adopted that term sex worker.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16m 14s): It confused me at first

Speaker 2 (16m 15s): Too. Yeah. Because if you call somebody a sex worker, they might take offense to it. But it seems that a lot of girls, I ran a poll not so long ago. And I asked performance concentrators, you know, do you regard yourself as sex workers? I gave him three or four, three options and one, you know, open one so that he could discuss it below 75% of them came back. So, and there were sex workers and some of them were, were they're mentally.

So defensive of it, they were offended that I wouldn't see them as a sex worker. And so I said, okay, look at it another way, like take 10 civilian people. I want nothing to do with the auto industry civilians. Yeah. And ask them what comes to mind when you hear the term sex work, a sex worker prostitute. And yes. Every single time you get out here in Bulgaria.

Speaker 1 (17m 10s): Well, that used to be, that used to be the term for prostitute. That's right. So, so tell me when, when did, when did the term sex worker start to apply to everyone? Including me? I guess.

Speaker 2 (17m 27s): Well, that's the thing. I, oh yeah. I can. I, I've got a very good idea when it did start, because again, I think Charlotte rose fought for all of her best intentions was trying to create an umbrella term to destroy what she called the whorearchy. The whorearchy is something where, where certain people in the adult industry looked down at other people in that industry. But for instance, a glove on model will do a porn star and a bomb style look down at an escort.

And an escort looked down at the street and Walker, you know, they'll, they'll say I don't do those sorts of things. I don't do that sort of things. So you've got this division in the industry. What she said there was a problem at the time is that sex workers needed to unite on one issue because she was fighting for decriminalization of, of sex work right now, I think by blurring it, I could see what she's trying to do. And like I said, for all intents and purposes, it was from the, for the greater good if you like, but ultimately I think by blurring everybody, there was no, there was no equality really, because what will happen is is that the people who could get bank accounts like porn stars and performers, because they can, they can claim themselves to be performing with add up performers.

They don't call themselves porn stars or sex workers. Could you imagine gunshot bank and calling yourself a sex worker, but you went to a bank, but you went to a bank to say, oh, I'm an adult performer. That could be anything that could be a fire eater that could be, you know, a mainstream adult entertainment, you know?

Speaker 1 (19m 4s): So I wouldn't even use the word adult with the bank because that's

Speaker 2 (19m 7s): No, where does that lead? But I, I, but the point I'm trying to say is that there were more acceptable terms that they use to get a bank account. Yeah. And, and the, the differentiation was once just once everyone blurred themselves with sex worker, somehow the sex worker thing crept out. And suddenly now it's a big issue with, with credit card processes now, because if you, if you link it to sister foster, what's going on there, if everybody sees everybody as a sex worker, how do we know that some of you are not even traffic, correct?

Speaker 1 (19m 43s): Oh, assess to foster blurred the lines between, between pornography and, and prostitution.

Speaker 2 (19m 51s): Yeah. So that unity has cost us. It's actually cost us our status basically.

Speaker 1 (19m 58s): Yeah. I'm I wasn't really thrilled with it, but look, I'm not an, I'm not a performer. So if a performer wants, they want to call themselves sex workers, then I'm not going to tell them not to, you know, but at the, but at the time, at the time I was really uncomfortable with it when people started it probably about a year ago, I'd say, and I can't say I'm, I'm a hundred percent comfortable with it now, but I guess it is what it is.

Speaker 2 (20m 27s): I think it can be filtered out slowly though. I've noticed that a lot of people who do call themselves sex workers, don't call themselves sex workers. If there's even TV night, for instance, I see them being interviewed. They don't say so today we have having the studio. So-and-so, who's a sex worker. They'll say that they're an adult entertainer or adult performer or whatever. So that they'll, they'll give them a more acceptable title. I think TV does that specifically because they know how toxic term sex work risks are in the studio to Toby.

Because at the moment you say sex worker is practically assent to the public, she's a foster child.

Speaker 1 (21m 3s): Right. Right. Absolutely. So, so, oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (21m 9s): No, no. Sorry. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21m 10s): Okay. So I love talking to Brits with carry on and shagging and oh, the British Axiom sys it, it, it, it always amuses me being an American who doesn't really speak English.

Speaker 2 (21m 24s): I know you can see why Austin tower did so well in America.

Speaker 1 (21m 28s): Oh my God. I love those movies. Yeah. Maybe. How has the current only fans phenomenon impacted your business?

Speaker 2 (21m 42s): Now everyone's got an only fence account and none of them don't feel they need to work for producers anymore. So there's a certain arrogance that comes with that. So if you say, oh, I'm looking to book somebody for a scene, they'll inflate their price because they just don't want to work for you. Right. Or, you know, I mean, I, I spend a lot of time talking to talking to an arguing with performers who are friends of mine, you know, and I we've caught onto you now, you know, you know, we, we know how much money could be.

Then you've been denied that for such a long time. And I thought, well, no, the industry was what it was before, because we know exactly how many sales we made. So the rates of pay were kinda dictated because you had, you know, producers have to have a budget when they're making a movie. Correct. Yeah. And on that budget, you have to have a return on investment. That's what a lot of performers don't seem to understand. All this stuff is just basic maths. Wow. So, you know, the rates are paid well, what they were, because that was the size of our market.

You know, we didn't pay as much as America because we don't sell the amount of units that you can send in America. We're not as bigger landmass market as America. And not only that, we're still seen as a little bit. We're not, it's not illegal. There was a, there was a, there was a legal adult industry in the UK, but you know, there are various government quangos over the years who kind of didn't want to get their fingers dirty, but you know, they'd kind of dip their finger in to say, well, we'd have to moderate you.

You know, you can't do this, you can't do that. And I think that kind of bred a sense of censorship in like, well, how are you to tell people who are in the lifestyle, how to have sex, you know? But anyway, back to LP. Yeah. It, it affected the, the, my business anyway, because a lot of people just started doing it for themselves.

Speaker 1 (23m 40s): Yeah, no, no doubt about it. So you're one of the founding members of a, you cap the association for adult producers. Why did you set up an association specifically for producers and what does it do exactly.

Speaker 2 (23m 57s): This was at a time when porn just became legal and to the year 2000, as you mentioned earlier on, when you first started out, we first met up at a convention called erotica, which was a massive event at Earl's court. We all stayed in the same hotel and it was a great time because a lot of people started putting faces to names, think of it like experts, if you like, but it was like a lot more smaller than that between us producers.

So we're all staying at the same hotel. We meet up in the lobby for breakfast and, you know, we'd get shot. And anyway, the course with producers, it always invariably gets round to the business where we love talking about business. And, and we, there were, there were problems that needed to be addressed at the time. And we felt well, no, I, I used to always say at the is no, man is an island unto themselves. So the food going to make any changes, don't you think we'd make it as a bigger voice together.

Or we could go out that way and try and do it singly. Every time people single-handedly tried to bring about change, nothing ever happened, because nobody ever wanted to hear a single voice. But when you had a whole bunch of people said, Hey, come down to this meeting. There's 30, 30 producers waiting in this room, want answers? Somebody would say, well, get your jacket on. Then I'll, I'll be attending that meeting because they'll feel that they have an audience of people to speak to. And at the time there were, I would say the luminaries of the adult industry at the time were there.

And we were able to discuss amongst ourselves votes amongst ourselves, you know, and we came to conclusions and then we affected the next move. We had people down and we made changes our biggest one, massive one, very cataclysmic one actually was in 2004 when Darren James infected six models in the us industry.

Yeah. That impacted the adult industry is since shockwave even to the, to the UK, because some of our best performers in the UK came back and they were horrified. They were shell shocked. And they were yelling at us producers that we need to change. Staff change the standards in the industry from three months tests to one month. And at the, not many people remember this, but yeah, we only used to ex expect tests within three months, every three months.

So she had to go about, well, yeah,

Speaker 1 (26m 47s): Because you don't want to damage in three months. Oh

Speaker 2 (26m 50s): Yeah. But you know, but then the asteroid already hit, you know, the reality came home to us with that because we were thinking that the incubation period for HRV was three months. So I can really get our test every three months. Well, to be honest, it wasn't, it wasn't, there was no regulation. People just made that rule. That that was the logic I've got my test. How long have you got it? Oh, it's still within three months. Okay. You can work. But then when we, when we had a meeting with producers and performers, that's when we universally agreed that it had to be done every 28 to 30 days back then.

Yeah. And then we also had the smarts to bring in the clinics as well, to give us their professional opinion and to be fair, the clinics only used to test every three months for free. But because of the adult industry, they did a special deal with us to say, okay, we'll create these gold cards for performers to get tested so that we can identify performers in the industry who need to be tested every month.

So, yeah, that was our first victory as, as new cattle producers later on, of course we, every time we came, we only had four meetings a year. So every producer would bring any of their issues or discussions to the meetings. And we'd we'd have meetings with, or day trips out to people at the BBFC who would discuss how they make their, their cuts for adult on turn, or we'd have guests from, from liabilities, employment and liabilities.

Because one of the, the next thing that we were concerned about is that producers didn't feel they were liable for anything refill. No, no, that's it. Guys. You need to understand that if we're not illegal, we have to conform with what's legal term. That means employee liability. So somebody trips over in a lie and you're set, what's going to happen. We've had numerous accidents in the auto industry that just went unregistered. And we're lucky that no one's ever sued a producer.

Speaker 1 (29m 4s): Really?

Speaker 2 (29m 5s): Yeah. We're lucky. Yeah. That no one's ever sued a producer.

Speaker 1 (29m 9s): I think of anybody. I think if anyone did and it wasn't something very serious. I think they'd probably have a little trouble getting work. I think that's kinda the way it works.

Speaker 2 (29m 19s): Yeah. There is that. But I think there was some, some people just, just took it on the chin just because it was an accident and it wasn't their fault. I mean, I, I, I know that a guy broke his Dick on my scene once, but the thing by the interesting thing is

Speaker 1 (29m 33s): Just hearing it.

Speaker 2 (29m 35s): Yeah. No, but you know, try as you might, you know, there are adult do our insurances that do cover aspects of the adult industry, but they do not cover anything to do with interest injuries related to production, which is interesting because the mainstream industry has industry liability insurance to protect mainstream actors because it's a bigger industry. There's more legitimate, but then if we're not illegal, why can't we be allowed the same thing?

They, they won't underwrite a porn film for that ship, even though it's not illegal. Hmm.

Speaker 1 (30m 13s): Yeah. That's the old double standard. We know how that goes.

Speaker 2 (30m 17s): Well, yeah. Again with you Kat, we were trying to challenge people's thinking. Yes. Yes. And I think we, we, we started making a collection of very influential friends and people who provide us services in the industry. So we became a hub for all that. Right. So we, we, it's not, so later on, in recent years, did, did we invite more guests to the meeting so that we could understand the industry better or for people to understand us better?

Right. You know, like, like, which was probably a little bit unusual, but we had somebody like revenge porn online. I was trying to tell people that the reason why you have your model releases, one of the things that drew me to producers is the importance of how they model releases and, and not just model releases to correctly word it, model releases, you know, the, one of the stage named one of the real name and the address and the date of birth signed, and also the words for, you know, the ownership of the material.

You do understand that it is owned by me. I can profit from this blah, blah, blah, whatever I said, you need to have those. I said, it's

Speaker 1 (31m 28s): To be written by a good attorney.

Speaker 2 (31m 30s): Well, nobody ever paid for an attorney back then, except I was dealing with a few companies that I was shooting with and I managed to obtain proper legal, right. Legally written releases and adopted that into my standard release. So I'll ask to people that my, my ones pretty much ironclad because I've had it re read by a lawyer, answer that. Yeah. Okay. It's covered. I've had various incidences where I had to provide my paperwork and it kept me at a call because of the wording.

Exactly. So, yeah. So I would run into people, the importance for model releases.

Speaker 1 (32m 12s): Absolutely. You were also involved with the U cap awards. Now, what made you decide to get into that and how did it work out for the businesses

Speaker 2 (32m 22s): Right now? This is interesting early on in the cap years early, you kept years. I just had, I just didn't believe in the awards. I just didn't understand them. But to be honest, when it, when they did do the first one, I kind of kept away from it until I got the call from one of the members. So not very, you have to turn up to the why the, and I said, because you one, all right. And I said, but you know, I'll have to tell you that because I'm wondering what you want to get you there.

Okay, fine. Fair enough. When I turned that, you know what, the, the night was really impressive, he'd done a fantastic job. It was Phil black organized the first, I mean, he was a member of you cap, but it wasn't called the new capital wars, but it was called catheter. So it was the UK adult film and television awards, which is quite clever. Right. Because what he did, he also included adult in mainstream. Right. So you'll see in the news, it's still there. If you look, look for it on, on a Google search, you will look for you capita, you'll find a Wiki page.

I've done it, who put that together, but somebody did. And, you know, I remember back in the day, the, a couple of name is now Benny, that she'd done secret diary of a call girl. And, and that was like the big series at the time. And that one of award. So I could see what they're trying to do. They were trying to merge the adult industry with mainstream adults. But that makes sense smart. Yeah. It was a marketing thing, really just to help, to help elevate the industry. But then, I mean, I didn't get that back then.

And so afterwards, when I saw the impact of what it did, right. And I became a fan after that, but I still know I, but the way I look at the event, wasn't my event. It was Phil Black's. He had done the first three events. Right. So when it, when it came to my time to take over, you cap off, it was about 2014. We D we kind of did it because I was kind of pressured by Jerry to do an event for experts because they were there to attend the party.

And Jerry said it would be a good idea to have something a bit more substantial than just a party to drink. Let's have, let's have an awards for, for, for them to enjoy. So I thought, okay, so I'll do, I'll do the about eight categories. And when I was doing that, I started a real, I started believing in, in, in what I was doing. I saw the potential for look what we're doing here. We've got Americans over here from X beers. Okay. And we're presenting winners. And I remember that the winners did go on to bigger and better things.

At the time they were kind of stuck in what I would call suspended animation. They, they worked in the business for amateur producers, but that was about it. After that they were working in Europe and traveling around. And I know one particular girl was doing particularly well, actually, no, they all did well. They all did well from then on, I mean, I wouldn't take any credit for that just because of the awards. I mean, they had to go out and get the work and still be a success.

But you know, what, what I saw was the potential to elevate our business and raise profiles. Right.

Speaker 1 (35m 44s): Right.

Speaker 2 (35m 46s): And I realized that it could be a promotional vehicle for all those involved with the business, not just producers, but the health services. Everybody involved. Yes, absolutely. It's the one time, it's the one time where everybody in the adult industry, whether they like awards or not do a pay attention. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36m 5s): Now, now, have you got any thoughts on why mental health issues are more on the rise in the business?

Speaker 2 (36m 12s): Yeah. Two words. Social media,

Speaker 1 (36m 16s): No kidding.

Speaker 2 (36m 17s): It's not just social media though. There are, there's a lot more pressures on performance these days to succeed, even though they're doing well on their only fans, I'm finding a lot of girls are just breaking down from dealing with the demand, dealing with the demand of fans, dealing with the demand of the work. They have to put out promotion shooting as well as having a life. Well, as well as beautifying themselves, what does, you know, raising children? Because people forget that, you know, some of these girls do have children as well.

They have families to feed. So it's, it's, it's, it all weighs in on them. So yeah, it can be very difficult. Social media is another one because I see that as a blessing and a curse. I think social media has replaced the mailing desks that we had back in the old olden days. And, you know, it's convenient now because you can tweet out there and people come to your site and they can sign up and it's, you know, that's great. But you know, there are problems that the other side of it, of that coin is that, you know, you'll get trolls, you'll get people wanting attention and psychologically, it kind of breaks a lot of girls down.

So not girls have a, not to deal with this, especially with social media. I mean, there was a particular incident that, you know, there was a time when we was losing a girl every month in America, particularly. Yeah. That's right. And, and most of that was around social media. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37m 50s): That was before a pineapple support got started. In fact, I was, I was, I was interviewed on, on their podcast a couple of nights ago.

Speaker 2 (37m 59s): So yeah. I mean, I interviewed layer tenant as well because I've worked with understand a bit more about pineapple support because being in the UK, I was trying to get people over here to understand the importance of mental health. But the good thing about what pineapple support are doing is that it's adult industry specific. Yes,

Speaker 1 (38m 18s): Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (38m 20s): Because a lot of charity organizations, I mean, I'm not, I'm personally not trained to deal with this, but I've had to deal with the phone calls at two o'clock in the morning from a subject girl. And I'm thinking who's this. And I heard him crying and sobbing said, I'm sorry to call you Terry. But you're the only one I know that's up to this time in the morning, you know, I just need someone to talk to. Yeah. By all means go, what's ma what's about to go, you know, and they're telling me, you know, whatever their issue is. I think sometimes just girls just want and listening air and they just don't trust anybody else to, to, to listen because that's a

Speaker 1 (38m 58s): Compliment. There was a stigma, that's a compliment.

Speaker 2 (39m 1s): Well, a lot of girls now I talk about a lot of deep stuff and it's not just the girls. I help. I help you guys as well. I think a lot of guys don't show their emotions very well. So, you know, it's, it's a big deal to me when a guy decides that I've got something really personal to talk about. And you know, it's not the easiest thing to talk about. It's not easy as a male to talk about. You've been assaulted by another guy, you know, that it's not easy. So, you know, I had the bind, I understand the darkness with that goes on in as well.

And I've come to the conclusion that are not people's problems in the industry is not even to do with the work itself it's to do with the outside world.

Speaker 1 (39m 42s): Yeah. Yeah. No social, social media, social media gets so toxic, including some of our own social media. Sometimes, sometimes the, some of the people on X, because it's just incredibly toxic. I had one, one such case last week and which, which has an ambassador, you may be familiar with we're we're as we record here in early September, by the way. But no, it's very toxic and people have feelings and some of these keyboard warriors don't realize that and they just tear people shred to shred, and then they just go on with their day.

And it's just, I don't know. I don't know what the answer is

Speaker 2 (40m 27s): Usually. Well, the anonymity of it all makes it easy.

Speaker 1 (40m 30s): Sure, sure. The problem I had was a guy who doesn't even use his name. You know, he, he uses it. He uses a handle, which, which I know a lot of people in adult do, but it doesn't make it any easier.

Speaker 2 (40m 45s): Yeah, no, it doesn't make, well, you say it doesn't make it any easier, but now you know that people are hiding behind it. And number two, it should help you understand thing. Do you know what I mean, naked truth guy. I had to set up as a separate name because I used to get into arguments as you can, because a lot of people didn't trust. You kept in it's early days. They thought we were, the thought has been, we're some kind of consortium of producers trying to control the industry.

And we had all kinds of expectations of the liters and everything. And it got to the point where I was being defensive and some people would just get downright nasty. Now people say that I get into arguments. But one thing I refuse to get into is being downright nasty. I will not get downright nasty and I will not get personal. What I will get is eloquent. So if I've got to attack you, it's going to be on an intelligent level.

Speaker 1 (41m 41s): You are so British Terry, you are so British. That's one. That's one of the things I love about the Brits, by the way,

Speaker 2 (41m 49s): It's one of the things I love about the Brits as well. Is that how they can eviscerate you with just words?

Speaker 1 (41m 53s): Yes. Yes, indeed.

Speaker 2 (41m 55s): Indeed. And I think just a well-placed word will just destroy you. Whereas another person will, I mean, I've seen people who started out as bodies be broken in half by not being able to answer back to something that's intelligent.

Speaker 1 (42m 12s): Well, I do a lot of this. I do a lot of the same, you know, I'll, I'll respond back to people in a very intelligent and well thought out way. And yeah, they don't know what to do with that because they're not, they're not used to people being taught.

Speaker 2 (42m 28s): I tell you what it all comes back down to the same thing. Isn't it all, very art of war by some SU sorry.

Speaker 1 (42m 35s): It's what,

Speaker 2 (42m 36s): It's all very art of war by sun suit. yeah. Okay. Now when you look at yeah, a lot of the philosophies that he had in that book was quite amazing applied to the way life is today. But if you want to, if you want to agitate your bully, yeah. I'll be, I'll call it the same. But anyway, but if you entertain your bully and they resort to getting personal with nasty words, they've lost the battle. As we battle this one before it's fought is another one. That's it's true. Every bat and this one before it's full.

It's very true if you think about it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I love about the art of war anyway. But every time people talk about Twitter and arguments, it does remind me a lot. I said, if people read the art of war, they will understand how to deal with people and trolls on social media, some people, oh yeah. It's, you know, it's not a very big book. It's not very long book, but it's got some great stuff in it. It it'll make you think, do you think, Hey. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So that makes sense. It will help you be a bit more strategic in your approach to speaking to people. So sometimes if somebody's having a go at you just let them have a go at you and then wait a minute. Are you done yet? You know? And then, then that's when you can hit them with the facts.

Speaker 1 (43m 59s): Oh yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, my use of social media these days is pretty much limited to business, a little bit of soft Twitter and soft Facebook personal, but I got into Facebook heavy and Facebook kept, helped convince me that I don't want to be there. So anyway, so it was a time-waster anyway, my God. So what are the differences between the indie content producer and the current content creator?

I'm

Speaker 2 (44m 31s): Going to say there's no difference between the two. I mean, our started out as what we would call back in the day as a semi pro and then I became Pro-Am. Yeah. And we, we had less terms, but then, I mean, in porn people might've called me a console producer. Nowadays I'm hearing people being called content creator. And I think this is a corporate word for corporate work. Corporations don't want to call people porn producers.

No, because they're trying to take away that then they don't, it's not that they don't want to be associated with it. They're just trying to clean up the act a little bit and make it a bit more presentable. Sure. Yeah. So they came up with the term content creator. It was a general term for people who create content. Right. Well, I mean, I can name drop here. Only offense is probably the biggest one behind that because they tend to, they tend to promote people who are content creators. Don't do adult. So what they're trying to do is now of accessibility.

So when they're promoting it, they could say, Hey look, you know, we've got people who are doing fitness training, cookery, painting music, playing the piano. But behind all that, take a quick look around the corner, 72, 9 or double penetration. It's like, you know, oh yeah, they're content creators. But we don't talk about that.

Speaker 1 (45m 58s): Now that doesn't, that doesn't, it doesn't fit their corporate profile at all. No.

Speaker 2 (46m 3s): Well, and for good reason, because they are a corporate, there they are. They're almost like a clearing house for money to go through. So they don't really cook. No corporation wants to be seen like that. I can understand that I get it. They want it, they want to clean up the face of it, but they recognize that they're also making a lot of money from that Jodie word sex workers.

Speaker 1 (46m 30s): I was just going to say, and their, and their content creators are calling themselves sex workers. It's really kind of funny.

Speaker 2 (46m 37s): Oh yeah. So you could see the embarrassment that is like, so could you imagine that a convention with MasterCard and visa getting together with only fans at a nice swished dinner and they're all say, ah, so you have, you're dealing with these sex workers. Are you and only friends kind of being a bit embarrassing? Well, yeah, they bring in a lot of money and they don't mean any harm. You know, they're doing their thing. Oh yes. But they're still common prostituted aren't they, you know, you can almost, you can almost hear it at the dinners already.

You know? And it's funny because I, I did deal with a merchant banker. One of, one of our members that you kept as a merchant banker, we asked what, what exactly is this problem between while we, while we are denied certain financial services and he tells us this one simple answer, he says, because the banks just don't have an appetite for adults. If the truth be known, most of their wives, most of the wives of these executives behind financial companies don't want them getting involved in that,

Speaker 1 (47m 40s): There it is. There it is. Or their churches.

Speaker 2 (47m 45s): Well, yeah, churches very rarely mentioned in the UK and this is something that's very American. You know, that the sadly in the UK, the churches seem to be a little bit more understanding that, you know, we S we understand that people like to masturbate over these things and they will have a sex life. And they realize that they don't want to become unpopular by being old fuddy duddies. Right. So, you know, but so they've got to promote the whole love and marriage thing as the proper way to do things. But, you know, they're a little bit more understanding.

There's just so much stuff out to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (48m 21s): So how real are the couples on real couples or is it just a concept for generic boy, girl movies?

Speaker 2 (48m 30s): Oh, they're all real know. This is interesting because people in the industry tend to think that, oh, that they could just come along and just do real couples for me. And I'll say, no, sorry, a little bit interview partner. Oh, we only met up about a week or so. It doesn't count. That is it really, you've got a history between you. There's nothing to talk about. It just, you might not be together in six months time. I said, look, and they say, well, what difference does it make?

We're a couple, I said, you say you're a couple, but the people I said, what are some of the things I'm going to talk to you about? Cause it's not just about the sex scene. It's about how you are. Do you live together? You know, all these little, all these little things that make up a relationship, you know? I mean, I think you're, you're, you're, you're adult relationships in the industry are just as valid as the real world, because you are people from the real world. Right. Otherwise other people just don't see it as just another porn scene and, you know, porn scene with porn, people do important sex.

I said, yeah, I don't really want that. I want, what, what, what real sets? Yeah. They said, well, what's that mean then like 10 minutes sex and then roll over fart and go to sleep. Do you need,

Speaker 1 (49m 46s): Do you direct the couples? If they're porns as if they're porn stars? No.

Speaker 2 (49m 50s): Oh, I don't. But I've got a very crafty way of manipulating them. Well, let me, let me explain that. So what it is, I always spend a lot of time finding out what they like doing. And I tell them to be, to be honest, I said, you can show whatever you want. I said, what you got to over the other couples are going to be watching you. So you're kind of going to be educating them. So if there's a particularly thing that helps you perform better, then carry on doing it as a, don't be ashamed of whatever you do. If you like to be pegged by your misses, you know, you like a reach round or whatever you got to be redeemed or whatever specific specific actor is, you do.

Don't be embarrassed because I said, couples, enjoy watching other couples being honest with each other. Oh

Speaker 1 (50m 33s): Yeah,

Speaker 2 (50m 34s): Absolutely. So once I'm, once I've instilled that trust in them, that's when it's usually the woman. That's really more like, oh yeah, he likes this. He likes that baby. You can't be tentative. And I said, no. I said, honestly, I said this, this is really I don't. I said, look, wherever you've learned important to unlearn it now. Yeah. That's it just be chilled out, man. I said, yeah, don't feel that you're under pressure to perform. If you want to do a bit, now do a bit late or you want to watch a bit of TV.

I said, ultimately, I want to be fly on the wall and just document really what you're like. And I think people prefer that. Yeah. I mean, I was pretty the first filmmaker to do that because everyone was concerned about for positions have become short. And it has to tell you that you're not doing it the right way. I said, no, I'll do it my way. Okay. I sit there. I shoot. I edit. Okay. And do you know what I said? If you wanna, if you want some kind of measure for, if your port is any good ask yourself, would you buy it?

Would you buy your own content? And I'd have to say, yeah. Okay. Well, not this shit.

Speaker 1 (51m 42s): That's exactly right. Any art form. Yeah. Any art and an art form, any art form. It's gotta be something you like, because if it isn't something you like others won't like it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51m 54s): Yeah. I mean, I felt I was making sexual documentaries. So what I said, I manipulate them. I find out what they're like and I'll try and get it in the pictures. So the manipulation is when it comes to the pictures, because I've done it in the picture. There's sometimes they'll say, oh no, I did that in the picture. I did it in a way that was easy. I could do it here in a video. You see what I'm saying? It's so I've kind of directed that almost by auto suggestion.

Speaker 1 (52m 24s): Yeah. Makes sense. Makes sense.

Speaker 2 (52m 27s): Yeah, but I, I don't stop a director because I think the moment you've got to stop and direct someone you're going to break the flow of the day. It's going to make it a long day and it's not going to be real.

Speaker 1 (52m 38s): No, you might as well just, just take the first part of the title off.

Speaker 2 (52m 42s): So. Yeah, exactly. But although I would like to say this, this is the one thing that you could trip me up with, but when you say how real is real couples, well, how real is it when the camera man's in there?

Speaker 1 (52m 55s): Yeah. That's true. That's true. I think you're being too Terry. I think you're being too philosophical.

Speaker 2 (53m 1s): Okay. Well now I'm probably going to get worse. Let's get,

Speaker 1 (53m 6s): Oh God, this is true. This is true. So what challenges do you see with running a website these days?

Speaker 2 (53m 15s): Yeah, I think it business back to the real couples though. I think I noticed since the only fans phenomenon that a lot more couples are it for themselves now. Yeah. So why would they want to work for a producer? You know, and yeah. What would they want to work for a producer? I think that's one of the challenges. I think the other challenge probably would be the payment processes again with what's going on, where the ones that are taking a bashing for it.

Because for, for many years we were out of sight out of mind, you know, we work, we, we work custodians of records because you know, not things don't lock into it and forget that producers have to have paperwork. Yep. So we were all above board with our paperwork, every site that I know that's if you look at every site at the bottom of the page, they've all got custodial direct calls at the bottom, really? That they're all 2, 2, 5, 7 compliant. Correct? The problem, the problem with the industry, I think is where a lot of content creators became used to shoot in stuff on their phone, uploading it to a site and not putting any paperwork up.

I think playtime's over now. I think what happened at PornHub was the unverified users is now impacting now on content creators, you know, who are doing sexual content. I don't think it applies to everybody because you know, some people are doing, you know, like music videos, for instance, you're not going to ask for model releases for that because they're not having sex. They're doing some music thing, creative. But if you're, but what people need to understand is that, that or that I don't think a lot of people realize is that if you're filming people, having sex, it is actually illegal to film them doing so without their consent.

Did you know that it's an actual, it's actually not. It's an actual law

Speaker 1 (55m 13s): In the UK. Okay.

Speaker 2 (55m 14s): Okay. In the UK. Yeah. It's, it's actually a law now in the UK. And what I was trying to tell people is that you could find yourself on the receiving end of a revenge porn case. Yeah. Yeah. Because I found that statistics, revenge porn laws now the four offenses I've deviled every year since I started.

Speaker 1 (55m 33s): Jeez. Well, I don't have a problem with that, to be honest with you. Cause I just think that's the lowest form when guys do that. Or if girls show it. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (55m 42s): Yeah, exactly new. I mean, I remember that certain guys used to do it because they were spurned. They were spurned lovers. If you like, so you know, to go got rid of him by a video type of send it to their parents. Oh, look at your daughter. Now she's a porn star. I always found that very low.

Speaker 1 (56m 2s): Yeah. It's very low. It's very low. And I, I don't have a problem with any punishment for it, to be honest with you.

Speaker 2 (56m 9s): Yeah. Well, no, well that's how we felt about it in the industry. So look, mate, if you're going to go that low, you know, you know, we're not going to be shedding a tear for you. If you get a Crick in, by somebody, you know, you went out your way to, to, to, to hurt her in the worst way possible. Yeah. So Hey, you know, justice is justice. We just have to look the other way.

Speaker 1 (56m 31s): So what advice would you give to people in the adult business today, especially those just getting started,

Speaker 2 (56m 38s): Definitely to pay attention, to get your model releases, correct your paperwork. Correct. Also there's a wealth of knowledge out there now try and absorb as much of it as you can try and be part of groups and organizations where they discuss certain things that may impact on your business. You know, what's happened with only fans recently. I mean, I've got an only fans account, but when they suddenly said, oh, all the hardcore has to be off by October.

The first I didn't sweat it. I just kind of, because I'm aware of what was going on for months. You know, being an expert, again, being an expert, that's a wealth of information there, you know, I mean some days between us. Yeah. You know what, when you get a bunch of people together, sometimes not, everybody's going to be on the same level of experience and manage. So some, some people are a little bit more frivolous than others and might upset others. So that's when it kind of gets into mediocrity.

And there's a lot of that around anyway. So I wouldn't just put that down next biz.

Speaker 1 (57m 45s): I got to tell you it's been, it's been better lately. In fact, I put a post up about that, that I was always happy to see more business oriented posts and some really good threads.

Speaker 2 (57m 56s): Yeah, absolutely. And that's what you'd expect. That's the wealth of information that I'm talking about because people who are performers, whether you're a performer content, creator, producer, whatever level you are in the business, what I've loved about experts is that if you're looking for anybody, you know, like yourself, somebody who sells websites, you approach manages the, the selling and the buying and selling of websites, designers, you know, that's where you're going to find it. You're going to find it in a community just like that.

You know? So it's great to, to, to be part of it is, is one thing, another thing is to be part of a certain social media groups, because you just never know that they'll come up with something that you think, well, please, can you expand on this? This sounds interesting. What you're talking about. Don't be afraid to ask questions. You know, also if you're a performer, you should try and understand who are the right people to speak to when getting a reference. Yeah. Because there's a lot of sharks in the business now, a lot of chances and sometimes it ends up pretty bad.

Yeah. And also I would say, don't do anything you don't want to do. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do people say to you, oh, you're never going to be a real porn star. If you don't do this, tell them to get lost. You don't have to do that. You're not ready for it yet. Exactly. Yeah. I said, I mean, I need goals like that when I first came into the business. And one of the things that I've learned is that when they're ready to do it, that will, they will practice and train themselves accordingly to when they're ready to do it.

Right. That's the best way. That's the best way. Sure.

Speaker 1 (59m 40s): Yeah, exactly. So you're currently living in Bulgaria, which is interesting. Now, is there much of an adult scene there and what are you doing there?

Speaker 2 (59m 50s): Well, at the moment I've been living at here because of the pandemic. I mean, I originally came out here to live and commute back to London for business. I would have been at a three or four weeks. I spend a week in London to catch up with people, but it didn't end up being that way because the pandemic, the planes are grounded. And I found myself spending a lot more time here, but a lot of people tend to think that, oh, he must be living the life of Riley drinking every day and just doing nothing. No, I'm busy with my memoirs and, and marketing my content.

I've got content out here and I'm working on a marketing, I'm still doing my social media. I still making money. So I still make money. It was great because I mean, the great thing about the current era with technology is that you only need wifi and a mobile phone just market. Excuse me. Yeah. It's brilliant. You know, and I found that, you know, my sales have been better this year, as well as all of that.

Speaker 1 (1h 0m 48s): Oh yeah. Yeah. I had a great, I had a great 20, 22. It was a 2020. It was a great year.

Speaker 2 (1h 0m 55s): Yeah. I mean, I was expecting, I was expecting an impact, you know, like with the pandemic, nobody wants to spend money on anything because they were buying too much toilet paper, you know, no money for anything else. And then suddenly I think, wow, I'm actually doing better than I was before.

Speaker 1 (1h 1m 11s): Yeah. I, you know, what I thought was going to happen? I thought there would be an initial spike because people were home and there was, but from talking to people with sights and also looking at people's financials, now it hasn't dropped off at all. And I think what it did was get us a lot more customers in the industry and they're not going away. So it's turning out to be a long-term boon. The bad side for me is some people are selling their sites. But yeah, no, I mean, it's a real buyer's market right now, but yeah, I saw, I expected it was going to fall off when people started losing their jobs, but it didn't

Speaker 2 (1h 1m 52s): Do you know what I think we can attribute to that? I think the fact that port is a lot more accessible and cheaper than it was before. But you look about the future. A lot of RV fans accounts, a lot of girls are doing a special discounts, like ridiculously cheap, like $2, $53, 50. So a lot more people going to rush into that, knowing that they can get a lot of content for very little money.

Speaker 1 (1h 2m 16s): Right. But I'm S I'm seeing, I'm seeing it with pay sites too. I'm seeing pay sites with great numbers from last year and this year.

Speaker 2 (1h 2m 23s): Yeah. Well, I think people could see value for money. I mean, if you saw it to myself, I'm advertising already. If you sell it to my site, you can get access to 20 other sites all for one price. There you go. Charges. Yeah. So I'm at, at times my site, but yeah. So yeah, that's real couples.com, real couples.co.uk. Let me start again properly. Real couples.com or real couples.co.uk is my main site.

If you join up to that site, you can get access to 20 other sites. Fabulous. So, yeah, but if you want to follow me as well, you can follow me on at naked truth guy on Twitter. And also if you were to follow, my movies is actually real couples on Twitter as well.

Speaker 1 (1h 3m 18s): Fabulous. Okay, Terry,

Speaker 2 (1h 3m 20s): Hey, I have one more. Last one, one last thing. If they're looking for discussions on, on getting into the industry health, anything to do with producing content creation, they can follow me at official U cap.

Speaker 1 (1h 3m 42s): Fantastic. At officially you cap.

Speaker 2 (1h 3m 46s): Yeah. Beautiful. That's UK AP official UK IEP.

Speaker 1 (1h 3m 51s): Fantastic. Hey Terry, this has been as, as you guys would say brilliant. I'd like to, I can't do. I can't do the accent. Sorry. I like to thank you for, for being our guests again today on adult side broker talk, and I hope we'll get a chance to do it again really soon. Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure. My broker tip today is part one on how to buy an adult site. The first question to ask yourself is what kind of site would you like to buy? Would you like a tube site, a cam site, a dating site, a membership site, a social media site or something else.

If you want to buy a membership site, what type of site do you want and what niche? There were literally hundreds of niches in many sub-niches. For instance, let's say you want to buy a gay site under gay there's bears or mature, bareback Asian, Latino amateur by black Euro and fetish, along with many fetishes under that classification. Plus there's hardcore jocks, porn stars, solo trans twinks, and uniforms straight has even more sub-niche shoes.

I can't tell you how many people contact me and just say, I want to buy a site, or I want to buy a pay site. I need more information than that. How you make this decision should be based on these factors. What interests you, what you enjoy should definitely play a part in what you buy. If you like man, and want to make money on a straight site. That's probably a really bad idea. Same thing. If you're straight and want to buy a gay site. So what you like plays a big part. What's your budget.

This is something you need to establish at the very beginning. Not only do you need to know what it is you're working with, but some classifications of sites are more expensive than others. For instance, if you want a campsite with any traffic revenue at all, you're going to need a lot of money. In fact, to buy any established site will be somewhat expensive. If you buy a site, that's pretty much just a platform without traffic or sales, you're going to need a huge investment to build it up. In that case, it might actually be as good or better just to start your own site.

That way you get exactly what it is you're looking for. We'll talk about the subject more next week and next week, we'll be speaking with Stefan Hanal of fin XP. And that's it for this week's Adult Site Broker Talk. I'd once again like to thank my guest Terry Stephens. Talk to you again next week on Adult Site Broker Talk. I'm Bruce Friedman.