Adult Site Broker Talk Episode 67 with Ava Durga of Circle of Q

Speaker 0 (0s): This is Bruce Friedman of Adult Site Broker and welcome to Adult Site Broker Talk, where every week we interview one of the movers and shakers of the adult industry, and we discuss what's going on in our business. Plus we give you a tip on buying and selling websites this week. This week we'll be talking with Ava Durga.

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Now let's feature our property the week that's for sale. That adult site broker actually our property the week this week is a reminder that we always have some private listings available. In addition to what you see on our website and in our newsletters right now, we have a campsite dating sites and pay sites available. We also have other types of sites as well. In these cases, the owner of the site is usually expressing the utmost care to make sure that the identity of their site or company doesn't get out for a variety of reasons.

These are also generally larger listings with big revenues. If you're interested in finding out more about our private listings, please complete our buyer's NDA on our website and contact us to see if you qualify next Monday on the hanky panky podcast, coral and Juul will interview Tony bones, adult male, performer, producer, and personality. You can find the hanky panky podcast, of course, at hanky panky podcast.com and wherever fine podcasts can be heard.

Now time for this week's interview. My guest today on adult type broker talk is Ava Durga of circle of Q Ava. Thanks for being with us today on adult site. Broker talk, thanks for inviting me. I'm glad to be here. It's a pleasure. Now, Ava first discovered the fun of feminizing males in 2001 and began helping cross-dressers sissies and bi-curious males achieve their potential at the sissy parlor in south Florida in 2017. She's also the co-founder of circle of cue.

Her work is focused on helping cross-dressers except their feminine side, which often includes the desire for receptive sexuality is a key part of their psyche. That should be embraced circle of Q as a private online social community and dating site for cross-dressers sissies. By curious men and admirers, it was founded by Ava and her friend, Rebecca Lynn, AKA sissy, Becca, to provide a safer, more personal alternative to typical sissy hookup sites.

Easy for me to say now, unlike many other sites, circle of Q doesn't inflate its membership with fake profiles or allow bots and scammers. The site is growing organically with real people to learn more, visit circle of q.com. Now, Ava, how did you get started working with cross-dressers and sissies? Hmm,

Speaker 2 (4m 9s): Well, back in 2001 I'd been a corporate person, but I took a little adventure break from a corporate life. And I became the office manager for a large professional dungeon called the dominant divas in Fort Lauderdale, which was a couple of blocks from the courthouse, which was really a lot of fun. So one of, one of my jobs as the office manager was to do intake on clients and I manage the hire to manage the houseboys and hired to manage the mistresses. And I also did intake and client relations and that sort of thing.

So one of my jobs was to make them comfortable when they came in, show them around and match them up with a mistress relatively early on. There was one gentleman who came in. I still remember a very tall lanky blonde guy, maybe 50 ish. And he came in rather quiet. I'm showing them around, I'm taking him on upstairs. Here's the bondage room. Here's suspension room. Here's the kitchen. Here's the jury box. Here's the, you know, the w the wheel and the impact playroom all these things.

And he's following me like an obedient little puppy, just watching in very quiet. Like they all did. I got to what we call the sissy parlor, which I named my place after. And it was behind these two big French doors and I throw them open. And every time I tell this story, I can hear angels singing in the background because he, so I threw out the door and you'd have to imagine the sissy parlor was probably the largest room in the dungeon. It was full man, size, clothes, shoes, wigs, makeup, lingerie, fluffy things on the wall.

It was succinct Nirvana. And this guy, he stood there and he just, he almost went catatonic. I just saw him there, stock still. And then I looked at it, I noticed his eyes were welling up. Like he was going to cry. And I said, so what do you think? Or what's going on? I wasn't sure what to make of this reaction. And he opened it. We sat, he opened up to me and he told me a story that in the subsequent 20 something years, I've heard over and over again, yes.

Married, responsible, professional, built the career, had the kids, had the wife, loved his kids, went to Sunday school, all these things that he had discovered early on in his life. He got a really good feeling from wearing panties or putting on women's clothes. Okay. I think he might've introduced this to his wife who promptly shot it down. And so he was doing what so many men did and do his, he was a covert, cross-dresser a closet. So he had a few, he had a few pairs of panties stashed and in gym bag.

And when he would have an opportunity, he would, he would wear them. Maybe he'd go off to a hotel and have his own. Or when he came, I think he was from the Midwest somewhere. When it came to Fort Lauderdale for a medical conference, he looked up and he saw there was this dungeon. So he just thought he would treat himself. And so he, he, he cause are there that many, like me other that many more like me? And I said, yes, you have to understand there's a lot. So, and the story again, he had gotten married. He built the career. He put all these desires on hold, except when he could sneak it out, felt very guilty about it, but it was still very, you know, something that he couldn't put away.

A lot of them don't buy clothes. It's the purge cycle ask any cross-dresser. Most of them have thrown away thousands of dollars of clothes, if not more, because they'll get discussed with themselves and think it's bad and shameful and throw it away again. So over. So he tells me, he told me this story, he really didn't understand there were that many like him, and there was such a sense of relief that he wasn't. And over the years I heard the same story. These are the cross-dressers that I work with are typically aren't they aren't trans women per se.

They don't want to transition. They don't want to be women all the time. They're not gay. They just like going into this alternative space and which is actually relatively harmless. If you think about all the things they could be doing and all that, all the stories I heard and have still heard about, you know, marriage is being broken up issues that just because he likes to do this recreational, it makes them feel good that suddenly he's a pariah is, you know, there are family issues. It's really a big drama just because of this gender play.

And so he kept it closeted. And when you're so, so many cross-dressers, they're closeted, they don't really have anybody to interact with. And it's not necessarily just for play sexual play. Although some of them certainly want that. Some of them might be just perfectly happy dressing at home, but they want somebody else to, to know where to show somebody or to talk to somebody else. Who's going the things that they're going through. And that's actually where a circle of, well, first when I, after I started the sissy parlor, which I guess I get back to, and then I, I started the blue bells meetup group in south Florida because there was no real social community for cross-dressers where they could get together and meets.

We started that. And within a year, I think we went from zero to 500 members in no time flat free thing. And then, but that really wasn't enough. And so then eventually my friends to see Becca and I started circle of Q, which is an, a way to online for them to meet online and social lives. I'll, I'll re re wind a little bit to the sissy parlors. I think I left out a big chunk of that. So, okay. So after I went out of, I stayed with the dungeon for, it was under a year and went back to corporate consulting and doing my thing, but I still kept my toes in the water of the kink community.

And so, you know, I'd go. And so in 2017, I was at beyond leather, which is a camp conference in Fort Lauderdale. They're not very good educational conference. And I was sitting next to a woman who at that time was an acquaintance. Her name was lady Katara. She was a headmistress of club femme down here and had for many years, been a pro Dom specializing in sissies cross dressers. So we sat next to each other at a cocktail party and started talking in general about cross-dressing and sissies and justification and feminization and what the I'm going to make very broad strokes here, what the typical dungeon or the typical kink scene did not offer, fell short for many of them.

Right. And part of that was a sense of belonging and acceptance, not so much the humiliation, right. And a feeling of community. And so she says, I think you, you have that vibe because I'm not a, I'm not a lead overbearing, dominant leather mistress. I don't, you know, that's not my style. It is a style that many likes, but it's not my style. I'm more encouraging and developmental. And at that time I said, I don't think I can be like, can I be a pro Dom? I'm rather affirming actually. Right. I really don't enjoy tearing people down. I learned, enjoy putting them, you know, building them back up.

She goes that's exactly. And she goes, that's exactly the issue. Exactly the issue. So she said, I think you should go into practice and I'll help you from a, be your mentor. So on, it was sort of, I rented a one bedroom apartment. She gave me some clothes. Other people donated things. And before you knew it, I had my own sissy parlor, which operated until, oh, it was great. It was great. Met the, you know, met the most wonderful people, the most wonderful clients. And then through the blue bells and finally circle of CUDA, some wonderful people.

So that's how that came about. And then sissy, Becca. And I started talking because I had started something already sort of a smaller community where people would know each other because it came, they would say, do you know any other car I'm flying to London, miss Seva for business. I'd really like to have dinner with somebody there. Do you know any cross-dressers in London, miss save, I'm going to, I'm going to Denver. Do you know any cross-dress any friends in Denver who might want to hang out? I was like, well, there needs to be something like that. And so I started doing sort of a small way of my own.

It was going to be called friends of Ava and everybody had verification and I knew everybody and did interviews and such. And then Becca said, you know, we gotta make this bigger with that. There's opportunity for some to reach a whole lot more people through a social community, a dating site. And she had being assisted. Of course, I had my perspective as a mistress and talking to my clients, but Becca had the perspective as a long time sissy, it was very typical and what was missing and what was missing out there in terms of connecting and communicating. And that's how circle of cue then came about, was trying to create a community where they could meet.

They could get support, they could find playmates if they wanted, they could find buddies if they wanted, they could work and get information if they wanted, but they weren't going to feel alone. And they weren't going to feel like, like corporate prey either. I might be being a little bit harsh, but sissies are ripe for the plucking. They're, they're a, it's a, it's a large group. It's a group that's often marginalized. They don't often fit into the trans umbrella, which is often protect. There's a lot of trans outfit, trans resources out there, but they just didn't have this community of their own and this way of interacting with people that was safe and they can get used to.

So that's how circle of cue came about. And yeah, I'm, I'm really proud of what we put together there and are starting to put together anyway. So,

Speaker 1 (13m 37s): So what do you exactly do now? A circle. Q, are you a mistress?

Speaker 2 (13m 43s): Well, I still, I still, during COVID, COVID forced me to shut my actual apartment, the parlor. So I C I no longer advertise or take new clients for live sessions. I still have a fairly solid small group of regular clients who I have ongoing professional relationships with. And I work on night flirt and through my own on weapon and phone. So, so in that regard, I'm still a mistress in circle of queue my role as a facilitator.

Right. Matriarch, I guess. And so if, if I love, yeah, I, I, there was a time I wouldn't have liked that term right now. I kind of liked that term. Yes. I'm boss lady of circle of cute, but I'm really not. The members are, and we've got some real personalities.

Speaker 1 (14m 30s): Fantastic. Now I hear a lot about cross-dressers sissies and trans women. What's the difference?

Speaker 2 (14m 38s): So the difference between I'll try to make this simple behavior and identity. So if someone is transgender identifies as a trans woman, we'll keep it simple transgender. That generally means that the sex they were assigned at birth is different from how they identify now. Right? So if they were born with a penis and they were called a boy and they were assigned male, but, but they start recognizing that internally, they really identify as female.

Then that would be transgender. They are crossing their gender in a more permanent way. That's part of their identity and who they are. They don't really feel complete without that, you know, that, that being a main part of their life, that's who they are with a recreational cross stressor, cross stressor. It's more, I don't want to dismiss it because it is an identity in a way it's something that seems to be part of them. It's not something they can just walk away from for years at a time and come back to without thinking about it. But it does sort of, it does ebb and flow with many of them, but it's a recreation.

It's a place they go when they put on panties. And I can even hear cross-dressers out there nodding, cause it's almost universal. I say, how does it feel when you dress? There is something that comes over them. You can almost see a change in their demeanor and their personality. But if you ask a cross-dresser to describe what does it feel like when you dress? They have a hard time describing it, but they'll tell you they have a hard time describing, but it's powerful since I'm a CIS woman. I haven't described, I haven't felt I can, I can maybe relate to it in some degree because you know, when, when I go into a fetish party and I've got my, you know, I dress the part, there is something that comes over you.

I can't really say it, but you're in your power. There's a psychological term called enclosed cognition, which is, there are measurable changes in people's behavior perception, just based on what they have on. And even without somebody else they're reflecting back to them. So I think, I think part of it that might explain part of it. I don't know. One of my big, my, one of my big dreams in life is to find a neurologist and get an EEG machine and line up a bunch of cross stressors and, and measure their brains before and after they dress.

And if there's any neurologists listening to this who want to volunteer to do this experiment with me, I'm looking for somebody who's qualified. I just think that would be fun. It's just a very toe in the water. Kind of look into what happens with the cross stressor.

Speaker 1 (17m 13s): Yeah. That would be 70 really interesting. Wouldn't

Speaker 2 (17m 16s): It? And this is the first time I've verbalized that to anybody outside my small circle, but that's sort of my brand. I know I'm the mistress, Dr. Frankenstein, right across dressers. I want to do all kinds of experiments on them when they have panties on and see what happens. But they, but oh, we were talking about how they feel. I think when they're dressed, I don't think that's something that they can ever really completely put away. And as they, and that's wrong segue into is as they, the reason I see so many older cross-dressers I think by time they get to me are a lot of them, their forties, fifties, sixties, I think the younger ones, there are more women accepting of it.

And their society in general is more accepting of gender crossing of all sorts. Sure. Whereas men, they get in their forties, fifties. I think part of it is cultural because they grew up with so much shame around it. But I think a lot of it is because they've spent their twenties and thirties and maybe forties doing everything everybody else tells them to do, right. Get married, build a career, buy a house, have some kids make a bunch of money, do all these things that you're supposed to do. And if you want her panic wear panties to relax on the side of play, instead of playing golf, well, maybe you can sneak away and be ashamed of it.

But a lot of times they just kind of put it aside or they put it aside to a degree they don't want to. Right. Then the kids grow and you start hitting a certain age and you look at the back nine and say, oh, if not now, when I've done this for everybody else. And what is the harm in me wanting to wear panties? What is the harm in seeing what I look like and full makeup? What is the harm in seeing how I feel when I put on heels and I practice walking with my pelvis, rotating across the room, all these experimental things, and a lot of them increasing and make the decision they ask, they're going to experiment with it and they're going to be more fully into it.

And the fact that they are able to have that sort of support network now through technology, that they were never able to get from family or spouses, or, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not dismissing spout. I'm not saying dump your spouse and go be across. You know, it's not that sort of thing, but it is a huge factor for many of them married to somebody. Right. And so, but I think there are an increasing number of outlets for them. And I think that's good for their mental health. I really think a cross dresser who was denied, loses a very important part of their, in some cases of their sexuality and some of their ability to relax, to go into a different world.

I mean, what's wrong. We hear all kinds of in the corporate world, psychological world play, why is play so important? It's very important. But all the articles talk about play as being maybe vanilla sex or golfing or sailing or doing something like that. They don't think of the fact that that going into an altered state, a parallel reality, or an altered state of consciousness during that few hours that they put panties on might be a very beneficial thing psychologically.

And then they take off

Speaker 1 (20m 27s): That and playing paintball. Right?

Speaker 2 (20m 29s): I don't see any, I honestly don't see any and it's an outlet for them. And there's a whole lot of reasons that men cross stress. Sure. There's obviously, it's, it's, it's a sexual turn on for many of them, for various reasons. Some of them, they find they might start with it sexually, but then just finally like to relax, women's panties and nineties are way more comfortable than boxer shorts. T-shirts buy it by a mile. For many, it lets them exhibit a creative side of their personality or a flirty side or playful side.

That's suppressed in their daily life. If you think Bruce about what's in your closet and I'm only guessing, cause I might be surprised at what's in your home. I'm never

Speaker 3 (21m 15s): Surprised. No, you wouldn't be it wouldn't be too surprised.

Speaker 2 (21m 20s): But think about a typical man's wardrobe or walking through the men's section in a store, you've got a very limited number of colors, textures, fabrics, and styles that you can choose from. You basically have a man uniform, you have a few uniforms to pick from right now. Women's space. You go on and you can go on Amazon now, right? You can dress to the nines like a slut. You can have an evening gown, you can be pink or blue or purple or red, all these things.

And believe me, they love it. Love it. And so there, I guess what I think of cross dressers is a different part of their personality and it's focused and it's time limited and it's space limited, but it's still part of them. So if you, and it's not something hidden, it's just part that they tried out of the right time. So you can draw a parallel with any person that the guy who is exhibiting road rage and traffic and the same guy on his floor playing with his kid and the same guy, giving a presentation at work, they are going to be completely separate personas, completely separate reactions, completely inappropriate to bleed over into each other.

But they're all part of that person, right? They're just brought out at certain times. So cross dressing has a level of shame to it, but I still think it's not that much different from imagine a little there's going to be sex. It's imagine a little girl in her Barbie kitchen. She's five years old. She's totally immersed in being housewife or cooking the gourmet meal or wherever in Barbie kitchen. Right. She's totally, there cross-dresser goes in that same kind of mind space, not like a little girl in the kitchen, but in the, the, we were talking about the concept of play, right?

They consistently say, once they've had this playtime, that's released, the pressure valve is off. Right. And they go back to man mode and they're happy until next. That's the difference between trans drag Queens are where exaggerated female clothing for performance. Right? And it may metal exaggerated, but it's performance art, right? So that would be the bank. I've seen

Speaker 1 (23m 39s): Them here. I've seen the shows in Thailand and they are pretty spectacular. But when they had life, when, when they had live shows here, we went to one with, with a couple who were at her, on their honeymoon from our industry actually. And oh, what a show? What a show. So do cross-dressers have different challenges from training?

Speaker 2 (24m 1s): Yes they do. First is because, because transgender issues have come to the forefront, there are a lot of transgender sites and there are a lot of I'm talking about serious. Not, it's not about quote unquote tranny porn, which is fetishized, but I'm talking about rosters trans sites. So when they go and they want to socialize, they often land as a support, poor stepchildren on trans sites. They're not really transgender. They don't want to be a woman. They don't want to find a man for a long-term relationship necessarily.

They, you know, they, they just want to have buddies girlfriends, right. To talk to and cross dress with. And so on the trans sites, they're often feel a kind of marginalized because they're not transgendered and they're not dealing with the issues that transgender sites usually deal with gender politics, identity, you know, these sorts of deeper rooted issues about changing your gender. Aren't really applicable to them. Some of them are makeup and so forth. So that's one, you know, the, the, the challenge they have, another one is, you know, how much of this, I call it a, a safe container where they can go into play space.

Sometimes they have problems, compartmentalizing, you know, how much can this bleed over into my real life? Because there, there is, there's a lot of gray area, but those are the two main ones. I think those are the two main ones. Trans women have a little bit harder in some ways, because it's harder for them to hide it because they are, they do want to come out and be themselves all the time. The cross dresser, they have to worry about keeping it hidden. And when they're who to tell when to come out, whether to let it out, but they can, the cross-dressers can keep it hidden, right?

Pretty heavily closeted for a longer time. And with more sanity, I think, than a truly trans person, who's denying their entire identity by, by trying to supply, having to step into another role for my, this recreation.

Speaker 3 (25m 58s): Right? It's like, so

Speaker 1 (26m 0s): Two guys who cross dress identifies gay, straight BI or all of the three,

Speaker 2 (26m 9s): Depends on how you ask them. I've not known any who identify as gay. I'm not saying there aren't gay cross-dressers but I think their numbers are pretty limited except as drag Queens, maybe panties. Well, here's why gay men are attracted to male energy, right? Not female energy. Okay. So if someone's presenting with female energy, they're not going to be as turned on. The majority of cross-dressers I've worked with and still work with are identify as exclusively straight or bisexual or situationally bisexual.

Most of them are married, but this is a place it's for many of them, the, they are interested in cock when they're dressed. Not all of them are some of it, just, some of them is like, no, I'm a lesbian. The man's body have no interest in cock, or they might have a fantasy about being seductive. It's more about the fantasy of being seductive and sexy and desired. And a lot of them stopped the fantasy, but some of them do go on to that. And they, and if they it's almost like the cock or the man is a very elaborate prop in the fantasy, the real cock they're attracted to it.

Well, I could go on the south as a white was cross and admires, want to find each other. And why, why men prefer to find cross-dressers to play with in a real woman? And I think, well, I'll just touch on that now, actually, I think, because I'm going to say some very sexist things here, but only because I'm speaking from the cross-dressers exaggerated perspective. Okay. Okay. I mean, you have to be very, very careful. I'm talking my, my girls, they, they want to be, they cry.

They love being sexual. When they're cross dressed, they love the feeling of being feminine. They are curious about what it's like to have sex as a woman, which makes them better lovers. In my opinion, they want to know what it, what it's like to be the receptive one. And oh, why? Oh, why men? Like, cross-dressers better than having an affair with a real woman because cross-dressers are trouble-free. If let's say there's a guy I'm talking for the admires.

Now let these, there's a guy. And on your show, I know I can tell, speak very bluntly. Right? He, once novelty, he wants to blow jobs. He wants fun. He wants something like that. Maybe he's been married for a very long time. And novelty is just, it. Many people do seek out novelty, right? Yeah. He's attracted to women, mostly attracted to women, but women try to find a woman as a friend with benefits when you're married with no complications and no emotional demands and nothing of the store without pay is really, really hard.

Right? You never know. And most of these guys, again, they have relationships that they don't want to sacrifice for just, you know, a Saturday afternoon getting a blow job well across stressor or sissy, they they're driven to please they're given if assuming that the sissy that wants a man and a lot of them fantasize about it, as I said, they, they just want to please. They want to be, yeah. Or they want to, they want to feel desired. Maybe they want to feel used and roughed up. Maybe they want to feel that a lot of different things, but they can get it without having drama from a sissy.

And the sissy can get it from a top without them the drama, either. Not that a man's going to go interrupt your marriage. Oddly, the top is tough. It was a lot more at risk. If he wants to step out, if he wants to step out and play a little bit, he's at a lot lower risk with the cross stressor than a woman. There's no emotional entanglement beyond often a very deep friendship. These relationships can last for a very long time. These playmate relationships, you find a steady person that you like to play with now. And then so some people go out golfing. Some people go down to the ACE hardware and hang out.

And some people get together and wear panties and suck cock. Right. And it's, it's, it's, it's easy. It's free. It's clean. And, and you know, if I was on, I can't say, cause I have a different perspective, but I was on the woman's perspective. If my man was going to cheat, it's far less risky to have him cheating with a cross-dresser than with a real woman. Right. Just less risky on all kinds of, well, not, maybe not, you know, we'll talk about, you know, STS and things like that.

But from an emotional standpoint, right, you don't have it. And yeah. And that's all they want. And so they go and they go deepen. And even the ones who don't want to have cock in real life, for obvious reasons, they still have involving a strap-on or involving toys or toys they may play with, at home to experience life as a sexual sexuality, as a woman in the field and to feel desired. Right. Because usually men have the men have to be the one who are the ones who are chasing and be so, yeah, it's a big turn on for them.

Okay.

Speaker 1 (31m 9s): So is, is cross dressing sexual and how does cross-dressing plan to a person's sexual life

Speaker 2 (31m 18s): Cross dressing for the majority that I work with, it's sexualized to some degree, but not exclusively. So it often starts out as a sexual charge. Some of them start watching sissy porn. It's a turn on. Some of them have already been crossed dressing, and it's a turn on over time. It often morphs into that still part of their sexuality and what I like to play, but they then just like it. They just like the feeling of the clothing. They like being able to slip into the softer alternate reality.

And there are a certain number of trans women who begin their journey as cross dressing, which you can, and it's cross dressing is not a gateway drug. Any more than milk is a gateway drug for heroin. In my opinion, it's just where it's just where it's happens to start with everyone. And some people it catches onto in some, I think almost every little boy who's tried in his mommy's panties or girdles or clothes. Not

Speaker 1 (32m 14s): That I recall. Not that I recall, but I'll take your word for it.

Speaker 2 (32m 20s): Well, okay. Maybe you don't recall, but maybe, and maybe you never did. Who knows? But a lot of them just, they're curious, right? They're pre sexual. They're a little curious little boys umami. Mommy's wearing a girdle. Well, for some of them it sticks and I'm not a psychologist, so I can't tell you why it sticks, but it's with them for the rest of their lives and, and maybe it, so, yeah. So for some, it is very sexual. And I would say for the majority I work with, it does have a sexual component. Okay. Decrease change. Yeah. So how

Speaker 1 (32m 50s): To female partners generally react to finding out that their man crossed dresses

Speaker 2 (32m 58s): That runs the spectrum. It runs the spectrum there. And there are a surprising number of women, especially younger women. But I think even older ones, if they're already connected with a guy they're going to be okay, they're going to get it. It might, they might reel a little bit, but they it's. I actually wrote a blog post about it called nine reasons to covet across dressing partner because I was so, you know, they're women often they freak out and understandably, if they're a straight woman and they're with a guy and they're attracted to a male and suddenly the male says he likes to dress as a woman and flit around the living room.

Right. And gets turned on by this, it calls, she ends up being, calling into question her own sexuality. It's a, it's a blow, right. It's like, okay, what do I do? Am I not women enough? Or is he gay? Does he really like me? Is he still the man that I love? And it makes them also question if they don't run away from it and stand to confront to the little, what are the purposes of a relationship? Why do I love this person? What's important to me in this relationship?

Who am I as a sexual being? Who am I, how do I identify gender? And I'm not saying that these women all should stay with a cross-dresser this, if she's going to shame them or really have an issue with it. What I'm saying is that there is often a knee-jerk reaction that is put into us by society. A woman dressing as a man or wearing a strap on is perfectly fine. You're a big football player, husband who loves to wear satin and garters, not in addition to probably looking really fine in them.

You know, it kind of shakes your world, but I think once they stop and think about these eight, if they do address it, it becomes a stronger relationship. But to answer your question in a more succinct way, in my experience, the majority that I've met or heard of through my clients, they find out they don't really want to participate enthusiastically or at all, but they'll accept it, but they don't want to see it because it changes their vision of their partner.

And if they're not. And so that seems to be more common. I'm just, don't ask them. So

Speaker 1 (35m 19s): What are your favorite things about the work you do? Oh

Speaker 2 (35m 22s): My God. I like, I feel like I'm liberating them again. Even going back to that first story, there's, there's so much shame. These are for the most part, really great guys. They're partners, they're good business people or employees they're good parents, or at least they impressed me. Is that very responsible, right? But they're, they're alone in this one way, this one corner of their life. And so, and there's a lot of pain that goes along with that when I'm able to come along, show them that they're beautiful.

Even if they think that they're not show them, that this part of them is acceptable. Not only me, but a lot of other people out there can appreciate and admire that and let them exhibit it and in a safe way. That's how I see I'm getting teared up. That's fulfilling to me. Cross dressing is what I I've chosen at this point and where I career to work with, because I feel that strong affinity toward that towards liberating, that part of them, it could be, you know, but it could be other areas that are, I'm going off into my own personal thing, but, but right.

That's what I really enjoy about it. And because they can be really pretty, it's really fun to watch them lighten up. I love my favorite part. My very favorite part when I have the parlor is to dress someone up. Who's never been dressed before, but maybe they've worn panties or they've dressed a little at home to bring them in. And I think every other mistress who does this will tell you the exact same thing. There's a look. So my thing would, I would be, I would dress them up and put their makeup on with. They couldn't see any mirrors in the house.

And when they were finally done, I would take them in front of a full length mirror and tell them to open their eyes. I get chills even thinking about them when they open their eyes and they see themselves, their alter ego in full fem state, their face becomes just filled with wonder after a couple of seconds, it's almost as glorious feeling. If there's anything I can feel this thing that they say about that's fulfilling to me and they're liberated from that moment.

They know that there's part of them. Yeah. That, that, that is, that is beautiful and accepted and they can indulge. And yeah. So that's my favorite part, liberating them and making them happier.

Speaker 3 (37m 41s): Nice to know how

Speaker 1 (37m 43s): Is circle of Q different from other cross-dresser and sissy sites?

Speaker 2 (37m 48s): There's a lot of cross justice to see sides. Well, I think one of the defining characteristics is that we were developed as it is a dating site, but it's a community and it was developed by two people who were really involved in it. That's one reason. So Becca and I are involved, I look at all the profiles. We, we, we have online events and do things we're trying to make a community of real people. Another thing is that we don't use fake profiles. So one thing that Becca was a star, it explains something for Baca.

I, I was shocked to me when we started the first iteration of circle of Q. We started with a different platform. It was a pre-made dating cloud format.

Speaker 3 (38m 30s): Mmm Mmm.

Speaker 2 (38m 32s): I was going to start saying something bad about the dating platform and forgot, forgot what it was probably when I was probably four. I know it probably wasn't going to say that, but we, my, my thoughts diverged off, it was what was the original question? It was, it was that we had to rebuild the site because the payroll didn't work. Oh, that's right. When we, oh, that's right. When we started building it, we did this. And, and, and with the package of this platform, you can this dating platform, this wonderful dating platform, we've discovered that you can buy fake profiles

Speaker 3 (39m 5s): By the thousands and just

Speaker 2 (39m 7s): Load them into the site. So it looks like you were full. And because I was looking at all these other side effects, like where all these fucking gorgeous cross-dresser models they showed they're full and nobody ever answers me back. Or I only get, I get fem bots or I get pro Dom's or I get all kinds of crap. What, you know, and, and where's my email address going. And suddenly my profile is showing up on this other network because of whatever. And, and, and it becomes right. And so that is in fact good. That explains it. So I said, so we both agreed without hesitation.

We weren't going to do that. The difficulty is, is that if somebody comes to a pay site and they go, Ooh, you got 5,000 people and really, really, really fucking gorgeous. Cross-dressers, I'm joining you versus we have 300 people, but, you know, w but they're all real right now. Fortunately, people are understanding that they're going for real, and I don't want to bash anybody's business model. I really don't want to draw any EIR that way, but that's our business model that we decided to grow very slowly, slowly and organically with real people and giving attention to real people, rather than just trying to make it a sort of a corporate here, let's get as many email addresses as we can.

And then, you know, we can do so that there's a, there's a genuine caring for the cross-dresser community that we have that I don't think is exist on other sites. Right? Those are, those are probably the two major differences in, you know, our engagement and we have, our participants are engaged. Also. We have zoom, socials and fashion shows and ways for them to get acquainted.

Speaker 1 (40m 40s): Cool. Yeah. I think you're going to find that the vast majority of dating sites use fake profiles. So, I mean, that's

Speaker 3 (40m 50s): Just, that's just part of it.

Speaker 2 (40m 53s): And we questioned whether we should, because people said, look, you have a quicker start. Everybody does, everybody does it, but we decided we're not everybody. Right. And if it's not that, you know, Bruce, we're Becca. And I decided from it and it, and it's been a labor of love. It's been over a year because the first thing I, the disaster we had to kind of retool and it's just back on me, we're not technical. We're just doing what we can do. Right. But we both believe really if you're doing the right thing, following what our guts tell us is the right thing to do. We might make mistakes along the way.

Certainly everybody else. But if we come at this with the right heart that is going to do okay. And if it flops, it just means there's not a place in the market for it. That's all. Sure,

Speaker 1 (41m 33s): Sure. Well, I think that from a marketing standpoint, you need to make it very clear that your profiles or real. Yeah. I think you have to make that very clear even, and even if you have to say, unlike some competitors

Speaker 3 (41m 49s): To do it

Speaker 1 (41m 51s): As a marketing guy from way back,

Speaker 3 (41m 54s): I would advise you to do that

Speaker 1 (41m 56s): And you'll find you'll. Yeah. And you'll find your response will be better. So as we talk about marketing, how are you marketing the site? Do you have an affiliate program

Speaker 2 (42m 9s): Program? So we would love to have anybody sign up. It's 20% recurring. So that's nice to people there. So we have an affiliate program. We haven't really done a really good job of marketing the affiliate program, because until recently we had, we had the doors open for a bit. The, we do have, we do have Twitter and Instagram and BDSM all, or we're doing some of the social media. We haven't done a lot with it, but getting there.

And it's been word of mouth a little bit on FetLife, we've done some podcasts which has brought, what's bringing some good things and helped me talk to some really interesting people like you and get good out of marketing advice, for example. But that's it. So again, the marketing's kind of organic word. We've recently put out a call because I don't have time to write a lot of blog posts, but we want good content. We really put out a call for guest contributors to contribute to our blog on cross-dressing experience. Sorts of articles.

I'm know I'm forgetting something else, the events marketing, but that's pretty much it for the TV. Awesome. What's your

Speaker 1 (43m 18s): Vision for circle of Q longterm.

Speaker 2 (43m 22s): I'd like it to continue growing with the same feel it has now, at least a people, a feeling of community and people supporting each other. I'd like to get more into local events as well. Not so much sponsoring it. We've already got the blue bells in south Florida, which has sort of part associated group, I guess. But I'd like to, as we grow, I'd like to see more live events where people have local meetups, you know, in, in there might be a member who sends a call out and says, Hey, does anybody want to meet? In fact, we have forums for that purpose.

So if somebody wants to have an event or say, Hey, I'm meeting at such and such bar, does anybody want to show up with me? It's okay to be dressed. They can do that. So I'd like to see more of that sort of opportunity and just to continue growing worldwide. We have members already from God. We got them from the UK, from Australia, from Al South Africa, from Bosnia, from Ireland, from Denmark all over the United States, worried about, so I guess 300 or something at this point. And by the time this airs, I don't know, we'll see how many, but, but that's, my vision is to continue keeping the soul that we have and to being a community and support for regardless of where they are in their journey of their interest.

Speaker 1 (44m 35s): Well, Ava, thank you for being our guest today. Anna don't sign broker talk, and I hope we'll get a chance to do this again really soon.

Speaker 2 (44m 43s): It's been fun. I hope so too.

Speaker 1 (44m 44s): It's a pleasure. My broker tip today is part three of how to buy an adult website. Last week, we talked about finding the right site to buy. Once you find it, what do you do once you leave the reach, the broker of the site or the seller review the information about the site. They send you, the broker should provide you with the following a profit and loss statement of at least three years. That's up to date. If it's June and they give you financials only through the end of the previous year, you need to see what the site is doing now, not last year, if it's a pay site, get a username and password for the site so that you can review the content, ask how often the content is updated.

Get some history on the site, how long it's been in business, the story behind the site and why the seller wants to sell, get an inventory of the content and how much of it has current technologies like 4k, find out if all of the content is exclusive to that site, ask the seller. If the content has ever been on VOD or DVD, see if there are any clip stores, the contents on find out how much the content costs to produce and what the current cost of production is.

Very importantly, see if this operation can run without the owner, do they do the shooting themselves or do they hire someone to do it? And if there's an outside producer, will that person continue to provide content for the site, find out how many new joins and rebuilds there are a day, ask them what's the retention rate of the site and find out if they do advertising on the site and where they get their traffic ask for Google analytics access. So you can see where the traffic comes from.

This information will give you the opportunity to truly evaluate what it is you're buying. Then it's. Then if everything looks good to you and you want the site, it's time to make an offer. Only you can decide what the site is worth to you. If you're working with a broker such as, oh, I don't know, maybe adult site broker, of course your broker can help you determine the value of the site. We'll talk about this subject more next week and next week we'll be talking to Raja of Chargeback Help.

Speaker 0 (46m 58s): And that's it on this week's Adult Site Broker Talk. I'd once again like to thank our guest Ava Durga. Talk to you again next week on Adult Site Broker Talk. I'm Bruce Friedman.